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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 17, 2021 12:18:39 GMT 12
Just going to throw something out there to the wider Forum modelling audience. Have been doing some research on the colour schemes for early RAAF P-40s. No.75 Sqn was first to equip and they had a mix of E and E-1 models. I am looking at the 75 and 76 E-1 Sqn machines in the schemes in which they were delivered.
DuPont supplied Curtiss with the paint that was supposed to match RAF colours but was an America local 'equivalent'. The DuPont colours were 71-013 (Green), 71-009 (Brown) and 71-021 (Sky/Blue). I have not used the RAF colour designations here for simplicity. Through my amateur research I have established what I believe are the FS.595 colour equivalents for the DuPont colours but would like second opinions. Wont put my equivalents out here to ensure a 'clean sheet' for any comments that may come in.
The P-40s bearing the RAF Temperate Land Scheme (no matter what Air Force they went to) were quite distinct from later models as they were painted with rubber masking and each machine was the same. Examinatiion of NZDF Serials clearly shows that the scheme for RNZAF and RAAF P.40s were the same. For example JZ-A and the header pic from the P.40 listing on NZDF Serials clearly are an exact match for the line up of RAAF P.40s shown on the header pic for the ADF Serials listing for RAAF P.40s. This not only applies to the camouflage pattern - and apparently the colours - but also to the location and size of the roundels and fin flash.
Having regard to the above, I would be very interested in comments from the Forum as to the FS.595 colour equivalents and roundel details.....over to you. I did the same for the Temora Hudson years ago to match the "Lockheed" equivalent RAF colours.....took a great deal of time.......
All help gratefully appreciated
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Post by colford on Jul 17, 2021 16:53:19 GMT 12
 keep-calm-and-open-up-another-can-of-worms by Colin Ford, on Flickr 'Buz' Busby on the Pacific P40s FB Group is probably a good starting point. Also Ian K Baker in his RAAF Colour Schemes and Markings 1921-1951 series did at least one which covered the P-40 in some detail (mind you they are pretty hard to find these days, unless you know someone who might have them). Nick Millman has also done a lot of research into the US paints used on RAF direct order and lend lease US manufactured aircraft, with a pretty scientific focus on the exactness of the colours used across different manufacturers giving fairly precise FS equivalents. He had a blog which went into the subject of paint colours on American aircraft for the RAF in some details, you had to email him to get access to it, see details here: www.aviationofjapan.com/2021/06/notice-american-aircraft-for-raf-blog.htmlIn the modelling community (if you go to the usual larger well known modelling websites/forums), you will get lots of opinions and answers on the Dupont colours and what are the best matches in terms of FS colour equivalents and which model paint manufacturer makes the best/closest match for them. Hence my opening graphic. Good luck. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 17, 2021 17:13:15 GMT 12
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Post by curtiss on Jul 17, 2021 19:13:21 GMT 12
You could come and have a look at our P40E-1 at Omaka. Fuselage still has original paint and roundels.
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 17, 2021 21:07:56 GMT 12
Would that I could curtiss............. into another extended lockdown here in Sydney. I knew that there was no exact equivalent from all the research I did on the Temora Hudson right down to the serial number colours on the nose. I have looked at many many reference sources and each has its own bent. I am so grateful for the diagrams Dave. They lock in well with some I have received from USA and also UK in previous years. Knew I was opening that can but thought that it was a good thing to seek a wider pool of reference. Shall do follow-up on all these.
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 18, 2021 0:15:28 GMT 12
Having said that there is no exact 595 equivalent I would welcome any thoughts on the 595 US local equivalent if anyone wishes to chance teir hand !
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 18, 2021 19:15:27 GMT 12
So nothing from the expert modellers on this Forum?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2021 20:07:02 GMT 12
They probably don't want to get into a scrap Ando.  |
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Post by colford on Jul 18, 2021 23:42:39 GMT 12
Yep,  HeadAboveParapet by Colin Ford, on Flickr Depending on which of the major or better known modelling websites you frequent or search on, P-40 Tomahawk and Kittyhawk colours of the RAF and AVG, plus those also delivered to RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF in equivalents to early war RAF Temperate Scheme and early national markings, gets the discussion and opinions flowing, often falling into a range of 'camps' based around the research or published works or hypothesis of a number of different researchers/authors. The intensity of the discussion can on occasions, quite a few in fact, require the moderators to step in and remind people about what they say and how they say it. Some of the responses are based on research using documentation held in various collections, original period eye witness accounts, some rare original wartime colour photography, sometimes access to recovered sections of aircraft with the original paints still in a passable condition and a whole lot of experience in the field. Others are based on belief. They are usually the discussions I don't get involved with, altho I usually see what direction the discussion heads and if any real 'evidence' and source material gets quoted or even better, sometimes the posting of extracts of original documentation, then that makes following the thread worthwhile. If you were to do a search on the Britmodeller website using "RAF P-40 colours" as your search parameters, it will pull up a heap of discussions over a number of years on the subject. Some of those get into FS equivalents and also perceived best hobby paint equivalents from various manufacturers (some of that too can degenerate into 'favourites'). I'll just go put on my tin hat and keep my head down...................... P.S. Couple of discussions on the subject on the AMI (Australian Modeller International) website, one quoting some FS equivalents and then a bit of discussion around how close the matches are in different hobby paints. Plus one with a fair bit on the C&M of the early P-40E and P-40E-1 used by RAAF. www.aussiemodeller.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16171&p=120625&hilit=RAAF+Kittyhawk+colours#p120625www.aussiemodeller.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7548&p=56839&hilit=RAAF+Kittyhawk+colours#p56839A search there on "RAAF Kittyhawk colours" brings up quite a few threads covering both SWPA and MTO subject P-40s. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 19, 2021 9:30:20 GMT 12
All I know is that they shouldn't have a shark's mouth if you want it to look good. |
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 19, 2021 11:20:06 GMT 12
Dave...totally agree......Col, thanks for the links. I wanted to obtain as wide a spread of ideas as I could to plot a "line of best fit" for my research
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Post by planecrazy on Jul 19, 2021 14:07:57 GMT 12
On but off subject, does any one have an idea what schemes the soon to be completed Wangaratta Kittyhawks will wear?
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 19, 2021 14:11:14 GMT 12
I'll ask Doug
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 20, 2021 22:17:15 GMT 12
Does anyone out there in Forum land have or know of the existence of Dana Bell's "US Export Colors of WW.II - Aviation Color Primer No.1". Would love to obtain as copy for my P.40 research. Very happy to pay for colour photocopying at a premium price and the time of the person to copy.
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Jul 21, 2021 8:10:39 GMT 12
Ah...but will the colour of the photocopy be acceptably accurate as a true depiction of original theatre paint?
(Also ducks for cover)
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Post by colford on Jul 21, 2021 15:29:01 GMT 12
Ando, You will be very lucky to find someone with a copy of that particular one of Dana Bell's works, from what I understand and have seen it was a limited edition monograph of 200 copies. I don't recall ever seeing a copy of it turn up on any of the 2nd hand book seller sites. Copy of review from when it was published here: misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/danabellbookreview_1.htmI also understand that from his ongoing research in the years since, and access to new material that has been found from multiple sources, he has revised some of his earlier theories and assumptions on particular colours (or 'colors' for our US friends) used on US built export aircraft, but is still at some variance in some specific cases with other researchers (most particularly over what comprised the 1940-1941 Dupont RAF Sky equivalent used on the undersides of UK order P-40s, including those that went to AVG). Dana Bell has popped up on both the Hyperscale modelling forum and the Britmodeller forum on occasions when specific questions have come up that he has been referenced in or that he feels he needs to correct or update what is being quoted from his various published works on US aircraft colours. (Side note: I have an interest in the early Curtiss P-40 Tomahawk colours from my research into the aircraft that the RAF Squadron that I am the historian for as they operated them from 1941 to 1943 in conjunction with their earlier - Lysander - and later - Mustang Mk.I - aircraft that they operated in that timeframe. So that encroaches into the colours used on the early direct purchase UK order P-40 Kittyhawks as being a follow on from the Tomahawks.) Regards, |
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 21, 2021 16:22:18 GMT 12
Thanks Col. I have his other col(or) trilogy and understand that the earlier volume I am seeking was only 200 print run. Something is telling me that there was his first edition in (I think the late 70s) and that the 200 print run came out in 2004. Need to be patient and keep seeking !
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Post by planecrazy on Jul 21, 2021 22:01:42 GMT 12
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Post by Mustang51 on Jul 22, 2021 5:18:12 GMT 12
Planecrazy, Thanks for that. I do have that publication. I have a great respect for Peter Malone having discussed schemes for RAAF aircraft with him before and applying his advice to another aircraft paint scheme. The discussion worldwide about these colours for the USAAC/F P-40s (P40C and E/E-1 held back from RAF orders and those for AVG), RAF, RAAF and RNZAF seem to fall into two camps - with a few minor exceptions. Am pursuing that Dana Bell publication to round out the published works. There is a Monogram publication and another by the same author/s that seems to point to the majority opinion. Both weighty tomes. Also have another iron in the fire which should tip the balance. More as soon as I can get it all together.
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