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Post by kiwiruna on Mar 9, 2022 12:05:41 GMT 12
8/3/22 The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the President and the Government, are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America. At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities. Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes. The Polish Government also requests other NATO Allies – owners of MIG-29 jets – to act in the same vein.
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Post by l29 on Mar 9, 2022 12:38:18 GMT 12
Yeah, not going to happen
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Post by planecrazy on Mar 9, 2022 17:32:00 GMT 12
Sorry if I come across as naive here but what does this mean, the Pols are going
to give the United States their Migs, to do what?
Never been one for politics but don't really understand what this means?
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Post by 30sqnatc on Mar 9, 2022 18:56:46 GMT 12
Poland give then to the US so they can give them to the Ukraine and later Poland receives replacement surplus US aircraft from their boneyard.
Russia cannot claim Poland passed their aircraft to the Ukraine.
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Post by Mustang51 on Mar 9, 2022 22:13:15 GMT 12
Then sold as surplus equipment by USA to Ukraine however, the process takes 12 months and, I am betting, someone in the US military says no as it would directly implicate the USA against Russia.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 10, 2022 1:23:05 GMT 12
Extra aeroplanes also require extra pilots.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 10, 2022 1:23:19 GMT 12
And ground crew.
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Post by scrooge on Mar 10, 2022 7:50:32 GMT 12
The implication seems to be that the aircraft would be attrition replacements. Plus how many reserves are there currently without aircraft?
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Post by scrooge on Mar 10, 2022 15:12:41 GMT 12
and Mustang51 gets the coconut
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 10, 2022 15:56:08 GMT 12
But having these as attrition aircraft, stored in waiting, presupposes that any Ukranian aircraft that gets shot down or destroyed still has a fit and living pilot who can jump into it. Sure some will eject and survive but not all.
And if Russia wins the conflict, which seems pretty likely, the Poles are basically giving Russia new aeroplanes.
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Post by scrooge on Mar 10, 2022 16:13:57 GMT 12
academic now, but I suppose the thinking was that there were more pilots and crew available than airframes (recent retirees and reserves). Plus allows for airframes destroyed on the ground etc.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 10, 2022 16:27:10 GMT 12
Academic now? What has changed? Sorry I'm crook and have not really followed much news. Is the war over?
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Post by scrooge on Mar 10, 2022 16:52:53 GMT 12
No, the US has quashed the aircraft swap around idea for the reasons proposed by Mustang51.
They have however said that individual countries can do what they want with their own aircraft (i.e. sell, lend or gift).
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Post by colford on Mar 10, 2022 17:04:10 GMT 12
On the basis of sell, lend, gift, all the Polish Air Force needs to do is leave the Migs in question, parked near an open gate on their airfields and let the Ukrainian tractor guys go and collect them - a bit like the early days in WW2 when US Neutrality Laws required that US aircraft for delivery from the USA to Canada were delivered to the border then Canadians came across and pushed or towed them into Canada.
The big issue is if any of these aircraft fly directly from any NATO country into the Ukraine that will be used as an excuse or pretext by Putin to justify a subsequent attack on the NATO country the aircraft flew from. They need to figure out a way that diplomatically and practically isolates the US and any NATO country from being 'involved' in the delivery process into the Ukraine of the aircraft. Also needs to be done in a more covert way so that when/if the transfer happens the Russians have no forewarning of it and no direct trace back to a NATO country how they got there. Hence why the US VP is currently winging to Europe for face to face discussions with the Polish Government, German Government and other NATO members.
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Post by FlyingKiwi on Mar 10, 2022 17:30:46 GMT 12
Perhaps a bunch of Polish pilots could defect to Ukraine with their aircraft? Aircraft confiscated, pilots deported back to Poland. Problem solved?  |
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Post by Mustang51 on Mar 10, 2022 18:26:34 GMT 12
FlyingKiwi....great idea........as to flying them in otherwise, the RAAF 'disguised' the replacement of Sabres at Ubon from Butterworth for years although everyone knew what was going on. Malaysia not a signatory to SEATO (thinks) so disguised, two fly out with a Canberra for air-to-air work, two come back....however the two that came back were from Ubon and the two that went out replaced them at Ubon. Should be quite a few pilots in Ukraine. Traditionally the pilots in the Soviet Bloc countries - and I guess that regime transferred to their now independent satellite countries - only get about 100 hrs jet time per year compared to much more for western pilots. This has been the case for many, many years (First MIGs imported here from Poland had the same story) and that is the difference between western and Soviet like countries. You dont fly, you cannot adequately practice for the types of ops needed in conflict. Soviet (and here I now mean Russian) aircraft rarely train in more than a pair...mostly pair/solo apart from the larger formations at displays and national days. In that regard the pilots do not get the training in larger air ops and most importantly, those trying to co-ordinate larger group ops, do not have the experience as well. Closest they ever went to larger ops were the Warsaw Pac countries flying at the same time as NATO countries practiced. Have seen quite a bit of that while travelling in Eastern Europe but again.... mostly the Warsaw Pac machines in pairs whereas I saw large NATO formations.....practice makes perfect. Thank God they have not had it.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 10, 2022 19:03:25 GMT 12
FlyingKiwi....great idea........as to flying them in otherwise, the RAAF 'disguised' the replacement of Sabres at Ubon from Butterworth for years although everyone knew what was going on. Well let's not forget the Russian MiG's were crossing the border into North Korea, pretending to be North Korean or Chinese, through the 1950-53 war, and fighting the Allied aircraft whilst they were not even legally in the war! |
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 10, 2022 20:45:58 GMT 12
FlyingKiwi....great idea........as to flying them in otherwise, the RAAF 'disguised' the replacement of Sabres at Ubon from Butterworth for years although everyone knew what was going on. Malaysia not a signatory to SEATO (thinks) so disguised, two fly out with a Canberra for air-to-air work, two come back....however the two that came back were from Ubon and the two that went out replaced them at Ubon. Should be quite a few pilots in Ukraine. Traditionally the pilots in the Soviet Bloc countries - and I guess that regime transferred to their now independent satellite countries - only get about 100 hrs jet time per year compared to much more for western pilots. This has been the case for many, many years (First MIGs imported here from Poland had the same story) and that is the difference between western and Soviet like countries. You dont fly, you cannot adequately practice for the types of ops needed in conflict. Soviet (and here I now mean Russian) aircraft rarely train in more than a pair...mostly pair/solo apart from the larger formations at displays and national days. In that regard the pilots do not get the training in larger air ops and most importantly, those trying to co-ordinate larger group ops, do not have the experience as well. Closest they ever went to larger ops were the Warsaw Pac countries flying at the same time as NATO countries practiced. Have seen quite a bit of that while travelling in Eastern Europe but again.... mostly the Warsaw Pac machines in pairs whereas I saw large NATO formations.....practice makes perfect. Thank God they have not had it. These days (since at least Syria) the Russian air force seems to be limited to deliberately targeting bombs or missiles on schools and hospitals, and are not much good at anything else. Errol |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 10, 2022 21:42:15 GMT 12
Or so, at least, the media tells us....
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 10, 2022 22:11:34 GMT 12
Or so, at least, the media tells us.... Forums, includng this one, are part of the 'media'. Perhaps you need to be more specific? Errol |
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