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Post by gibbo on Apr 17, 2022 1:30:28 GMT 12
I've been looking at my late Uncle's service records again recently... Ronald G Pryce, NZ 39407. He served with the RNZAF in the UK between September 1940 & January 1944 with service in NZ briefly before & after WW2. He was an armourer and his records show he was posted as follows: - 217 Sqn 09/09/40 - 02/04/41 (St Eval, Cornwall)
- 75 Sqn 02/04/41 - 02/04/42 (Feltwell, Norfolk)
- Redhill U.K. (Surrey) 02/04-42 - 22/01/44
From the above clearly the first 2 postings were with the respective squadrons, but I'm curious about the 3rd entry... RAF Redhill was an operational base, it merely seems that he was no longer posted to a squadron but rather the base itself.
My question... I have this idea rattling around in my head that maybe at some point during WW2 some / all ground tradies moved from being posted to squadrons to being posted to bases... is this correct?
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Post by davidd on Apr 17, 2022 11:43:10 GMT 12
gibbo, that is correct, certainly with Bomber Command squadrons. Other squadrons from as early as 1942 (maybe earlier) never had the ground-staff on squadron strength, they were posted to numbered SE's (Servicing Echelons), and often these incorporated the number of the squadron they were initially attached to, but with an additional number inserted ahead of it. No. 486 (RNZAF) Squadron was a good example of this, right through the war.
However this is quite a complex story, with the Bomber Command squadron servicing staff being transferred to Base Wings in late 1943 (generally), which were responsible for servicing multiple squadrons on up to three stations which were all administratively linked for servicing purposes, etc.
No. 488 (RNZAF) Squadron in Singapore (and possibly Sumatra?) however had its original ground staff posted to the squadron at Rongotai along with the aircrew in September 1941, and they stayed together until withdrawn to NZ in March/April 1942; these men remained an integral part of the squadron throughout its short existence. I have never seen these reorganisations covered in an overall manner in a single publication, but the "RAF Squadrons" (author temporarily a blank) does have most of the details listed under each squadron, in 2nd edition.
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Post by pjw4118 on Apr 17, 2022 12:06:54 GMT 12
David , this is quite a complex issue as the posting of ground staff seems to have been quite independent of operations , however 2nd TAF squadrons tended to take their servicing crews along with them . Examples in the NZBCA group like Wally Halliwell (an engine mechanic Halton trained ), serviced Hurricanes ( Northholt ) in the BoB , then to Speke assembling Hudsons , then to Rhodesia and EFTS school on Tiger Moths , then India on anything that needed engine work. Charlie Shepherd was an armourer and an early posting to UK , where he served on 10 squadron at Leeming , 75 at Feltwell then in the 2ndTAF 80 and 486 squadrons.
As they were not allocated to a squadron , this caused some grief postwar when trying to join squadron associations as they often had only their paybook to prove postings.
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Post by davidd on Apr 18, 2022 10:28:08 GMT 12
Peter, I told you it was complex (2nd para.)! I also mentioned 486 Squadron as one to read up on, as it NEVER (technically) had its own groundstaff for a single day, but always had its own SE (Servicing Echelon) which followed 486 faithfully through many locations in the UK and then to France and right up to the time of its disbandment (actually I think it was renamed with an RAF number, the squadron that is, not the SE.)
Every class of squadron (Coastal Strike, Coastal [the rest, including large flying boats], Bomber, Fighter, ADGB, Army Co-op, overseas commands) all had differing arrangements with relation to their servicing staff, and these arrangements tended to change with time. Somebody should write a book on it! Actually one of the RAF Narrative series DID cover part of the story, but sadly Volume 2 was never published.
As the RNZAF only sent comparatively small numbers of technical staff (non-flying) in some six trades to the UK for service attached to the RAF as individuals, perhaps about 600 in total between 1939 and early 1942 (plus a further batch of radar man in 1944 intended as reinforcements leading up to D-Day), mostly wireless, radar, armament, and instruments) they could never man a single Servicing later Echelon as they did not have the spread of trades to start with, so were simply sprinkled gently throughout the RAF (mostly the Home commands initially), and some were posted to overseas commands. A sole RNZAF armourer was posted to an RAAF SE with Fighter Command (Spitfires) in the UK and eventually ended up serving attached to the RAAF in Australia on the groundstaff of the Churchill Wing! Probably the largest trade group of RNZAF tradesmen with the RAF in the UK were Radar technicians, smallest group were instrument tradesmen.
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Post by gibbo on Apr 18, 2022 10:32:17 GMT 12
gibbo, that is correct, certainly with Bomber Command squadrons. Other squadrons from as early as 1942 (maybe earlier) never had the ground-staff on squadron strength, they were posted to numbered SE's (Servicing Echelons), and often these incorporated the number of the squadron they were initially attached to, but with an additional number inserted ahead of it. No. 486 (RNZAF) Squadron was a good example of this, right through the war. However this is quite a complex story, with the Bomber Command squadron servicing staff being transferred to Base Wings in late 1943 (generally), which were responsible for servicing multiple squadrons on up to three stations which were all administratively linked for servicing purposes, etc. No. 488 (RNZAF) Squadron in Singapore (and possibly Sumatra?) however had its original ground staff posted to the squadron at Rongotai along with the aircrew in September 1941, and they stayed together until withdrawn to NZ in March/April 1942; these men remained an integral part of the squadron throughout its short existence. I have never seen these reorganisations covered in an overall manner in a single publication, but the "RAF Squadrons" (author temporarily a blank) does have most of the details listed under each squadron, in 2nd edition. Thanks David, this makes sense. Unfortunately I only had 1 in-depth conversation about his time in the UK with him before he died in 1986 and that was before I really got into NZ military history with the level of interest I have now. He had some fascinating tales but understandably the focus of publications tends to all be about aircrew so if anyone can recommend any good personal histories written by WW2 groundies I been keen to hear. |
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Post by davidd on Apr 18, 2022 10:48:37 GMT 12
Peter, the WW2 Radar trades survivors (those that served in NZ as well as those sent to UK) did write up a comprehensive history of lists, anecdotes, photos, etc., some years ago, in three volumes if I recall correctly. The RNZAF Museum has a set, and a set was also presented to me for some reason, for which I am very grateful. Probably fairly hard to get, and most of the contributors would be dead by now I imagine, so their precious volumes should be cherished by all, may turn up on auction sites from time to time.
David D
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