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Post by jeeiii on Mar 18, 2024 8:12:24 GMT 12
Was wondering if anyone might have some information on this photo! Any guess on what Servicing Unit they belong to? The '9' Corsair is REALLY interesting as I have never seen a single number RNZAF Corsair!!!
Thank You John
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Post by camtech on Mar 18, 2024 11:43:34 GMT 12
Just one of the oddities of the Servicing Unit that owned the aircraft. A wide variety of numbering their aircraft is evidenced via photos. The "9" will probably be the last number of the aircraft's serial no, but the question is which one. Someone here will have either an answer or a good theory as to which one.
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 18, 2024 14:47:57 GMT 12
Thanks for responding! Living here in Stratford, CT. was always a fan (since I was a Teen-almost 50 yrs ago!) of the Corsair and the RNZAF use. I know the Corsair Servicing Units were not always consistent with their applied markings but have noticed that some SU's used specific stencil fonts and that photo is a great example. The '9' looks like the type the No.2 SU used a lot while the '82' looks like the style the No.4 SU used on their tails. Of course when A/C were transferred between SU's, that's where the trail gets very confusing!
John
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Post by Antonio on Mar 18, 2024 15:13:43 GMT 12
 Also note the missing white bars on the starboard wing of 82 plus WATB a yellow? spinner. |
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Post by davidd on Mar 19, 2024 10:30:39 GMT 12
Well, all I am prepared to say from the start is that the SU in question is highly likely to be one in the "forward area" (read SWPA) in latter stages of the war, judging by the general colour schemes and the centre-line bomb racks fitted, possibly at Bougainville (which would have from two to four Corsair SU's/squadrons in action at that time). Also the slightly lighter coloured domes of their HS propellers may be trying to tell us something too! Both Corsairs in foreground (82 and 9) appear to be in rather weather-worn dark blue overall schemes, and it is worth noting the type of canopy fitted (which precludes the Goodyear FG-1D type). Cannot exclude the SUs at Green Island, Emirau, Los Negros, or Jacquinot Bay either. After checking my "working notes" on each of the SU's under the spotlight, and taking into account that I am following the normal assumption (not applicable, however, to NZ-based Corsairs) that the numbers applied to the noses of these aircraft are the "final two" of their RNZAF serial numbers, my guess would be 30 SU (at Green Island from October 1944, then Jacquinot Bay from May 1945). Both NZ5209 and 5282 served with this unit from October 1944 till end of the war according to my accumulated research notes. Checking other possibilities, 5309, and 5409, as well as 5382 and 5482, shows that former pair of aircraft were with 1 SU at Bougainville, and 3 SU at Green Island/Jacquinot Bay respectively during this period. Of the latter pair, 5382 was written off in a flying accident with 25 SU at Espiritu Santo on 24/10/44, and 5482 was with 3 SU at Green Island and Jacquinot Bay till end of the war, being written off in a landing accident at Piva (Bougainville) on 15/9/45, having just arrived from Jacquinot Bay for engine modifications. Hmmm, must say, this was easier to come to a fairly strong conclusion than I first thought. However this is still not 100% confirmed, but I reckon it is a fair guess, knowing what we know. Naturally I did not include details form NZ55xx and 56xx aircraft for fairly obvious reasons, former being generally the NZ-only based Corsairs, and latter were the FG-1Ds which I ruled out because of those late-model canopies. Open to all criticisms/suggestions. Another couple of visible/readable "nose numbers" on aircraft in th eimage would have given me more confidence. The attached further information provided on the site had some very good, and then some very terrrible information, somewhat typical of many articles on historical events/details these days. Has to be said.
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 19, 2024 11:51:27 GMT 12
Amazing info! Have to admit I'm fascinated by NZ5309 and it's single number, usually it would be an "09" marking using the last 2 of the serial number. Is there a way to find out what SU may have applied the numbers. Those look just like the No. 2 SU stencils. The 3rd Corsair has an oversprayed number on the tail -looks like 21 or 31 and the 4th has a 3-digit cowl number. One of the sites that list NZ serials says it was originally coded '309', so maybe whoever did the repaint decided to just stencil back just the one diglt '9'? Thank You so much!!!
John
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Post by davidd on Mar 19, 2024 15:35:00 GMT 12
jeeiii,
So far as I know, there was never anything planned beforehand when the RNZAF began receiving their brand new Corsairs in March 1944 as to how they would apply unit or "tactical" markings to these aircraft. However it seems to me that the Base Depot Workshops staff at Espiritu Santo, may have taken it upon themselves to apply the last two digits of each machine's serial number to the top of the rudder in yellow paint, plus the usual contemporary roundels, fin flashes and full serial number in the normal locations, etc. This would have saved the receiving units (in the forward area) having to do this job in possibly worse climatic conditions than those experienced at Espiritu Santo. Just a thought. By this time (March 1944) most of the RNZAF operational aircraft in the forward area were marked in somewhat similar fashion (and usually with yellow, or sometimes white) abbreviated repetitions of their serial numbers on various parts of their airframes, apart from the Catalinas which seemed to operate under a different regime so far as markings were concerned. The Avengers, Dauntlesses, and Venturas (all US Navy a/c of course) looked quite a bit like their American counterparts in the same operational area, and the remaining NZ P-40's likewise mirrored USAAF fighters in a general sense (although many USAAF types were by this time appearing in bare metal). As to why the (perhaps) the first nine Corsairs off the Base Depot Workshops assembly line only had the last digit of their full serial number repeated on upper rudder is unknown, but it is possible. I would not imagine that this was considered a major corruption of the envisaged standardisation of tactical markings, but it does seem that pretty well all of the NZ52xx, 53xx and early 54xx aircraft had similar (but not necessarilly identical) "last two" of the serial number presented on upper rudder, almost certainly with use of stencils. However the last run of Corsairs off this line (mostly F4U-1Ds) probably had no numbers applied in this way, although it is possible that further styles of "tactical" markings were applied to aircraft scheduled for the last two SU's, personnel just arrived from NZ and yet to receive their issue of new aircraft - 3 SU at Green Island (last 2 digits applied forward of fuselage roundels, in large size, yellow), and 5 SU at Emirau (last 2 digits applied aft of cooling outlets on forward fuselage, smaller size, perhaps in white), plus I think a complete replacement of 2 SU's original F4U-1 aircraft at Bougainville, with F4U-1D's. And it is noticeable that once this situation was reached, that "discipline" in application of standardised markings was rather prone to go off on tangents, with some units ending up with quite a variety of styles, while others were more uniform. Other SU's with a motley collection of old and new aircraft sometimes burst into a frenzy of repainting their entire fleet in their own "standardised" colour schems - I think 25 SU at Bougainville was a good example of this. And 4 SU, right from time of arrival of its first F4U-1's in about June 1944, insisted in having letters instead of "last two" numbers on their engine cowlings, a habit carried over form its P-40 days - however they did still have the "last-two" of serial number on their upper rudder. No doubt the theatre's operational commander (US Navy, or more likely some of his underlings) would have been advised of plans for these marking practices, to prevent any duplications which might cause confusion, so likely the ideas for these particular markings were suggested before the paint pots were ever opened.
The four RNZAF F4U squadrons located at Bougainville (at Piva Bomber strip only) by April 1945 probably came to some mutual arrangement whereby they agreed to apply various simple markings on their aircraft, intended mainly for unit recognition on the airfield, from a frontal quarter. It is known that at least some of these SU's (Nos. 1, 2, 25, 31) had such markings as (possibly) yellow front cowl rings, red prop domes or white-painted propeller hubs (but not the dome). By this time there were no American aircraft operating from this field, but the RAAF was in residence with a squadron of Boomerangs (and a couple of Wirraways), a small Army unit of Auster Mk.IIIs (17 AOP FLight), plus a couple of Beaufreighters and about 2 C-47s. It was rare for RNZAF units on any airfield in overseas locations actually outnumbered other Allied aircraft. By this time, both Torokina and the Piva Fighter strip were no longer in use, being surplus to requirements (both these strips previously accommodated large numbers of aircraft, perhaps over a hundred each, mostly single-engined).
David D
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 20, 2024 3:02:50 GMT 12
Thanks David! Such an interesting topic. Some of the early SU's definitely had a specific type of Stencil used but that was less often seen during 1945 once the A/C began moving thru the various SU's. For example 3 SU's large yellow fuselage numbers were distinctive. As you say, it may have been that when a large batch of new Corsairs arrived, they were unofficially 'coded' for a specific SU to make them more easily grouped with a particular font. 31 SU's Corsairs seemed to have no particular font and even using crudely applied hand written numbers! While unofficial, it does seem that it became SOP from the earliest days of the Corsair Servicing Units.
Thanks Again! John |
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 24, 2024 2:33:11 GMT 12
433472469_10224981032263562_1584422780043832532_n
David - Just found this image of that Corsair NZ5382 that was in the air-to-air photo. Does this help with the guess that it was from the 30 SU. Looks like a few 1 SU Stencil types on the tails.
John
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Post by davidd on Mar 24, 2024 10:09:59 GMT 12
John, I cannot seem to open that reference. Any suggestions?
Incidentally, do not think that referring to 1 SU stencils in the early days of our Corsairs is very accurate, and my feeling is that these numbers were applied by Base Depot Workshops personnel in the first instance. However I cannot prove that, and I have never come across any references whatsoever to the application of such markings in any correspondence I have seen - might exist in some engineering file or other. but most of these were probably destroyed after the war when they became irrelvant and were consequently destroyed. Removal of an aircraft type from the inventory would usually result in all relevant publications and engineering files to be removed from circulation, even if they still had a few instructional airframes of the type still on the strrength of ATC units, for instance. THis would be particulalry true of totally obsolete types, such as the Corsair, with the last flights in New Zealand (and Japan) taking place in about 1948.
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 24, 2024 16:10:51 GMT 12
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 24, 2024 19:57:59 GMT 12
I am also wondering if the F4U-1 in question could be NZ5209? This is simply based upon the observation that F4U-1 NZ5201 only carried the single digit "1" on its rudder - at least early in its career?
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 25, 2024 7:17:07 GMT 12
Corsair67
I've never seen a single digit RNZAF Corsair prior to '9'. Could be an interesting story someday on photos of single digits front-line Corsairs! Also had a question about the light colored NZ Corsair serials. Have seen at least 2 photos so far. Any guess on how widespread this was. I can figure on the new Sea Blue's and repaints, how the Black wouldn't be very visible! Correction: Just found the NZ5201 photo! I wonder if it was '2' or '202' for NZ5202? Very interesting!!!
John
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Post by Antonio on Mar 25, 2024 8:08:04 GMT 12
Corsair67 I've never seen a single digit RNZAF Corsair prior to '9'. Could be an interesting story someday on photos of single digits front-line Corsairs! Also had a question about the light colored NZ Corsair serials. Have seen at least 2 photos so far. Any guess on how widespread this was. I can figure on the new Sea Blue's and repaints, how the Black wouldn't be very visible! Correction: Just found the NZ5201 photo! I wonder if it was '2' or '202' for NZ5202? Very interesting!!! John There is NZ5201  |
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Post by davidd on Mar 25, 2024 10:38:44 GMT 12
Needless to say, the above photo of 5201 is an RNZAF official photograph, almost certainly taken at Espiritu Santo following assembly at the Base Depot Workshops. Paint looks in fairly good nick.
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 25, 2024 11:03:30 GMT 12
Antonio:
Thanks! There is one posted list that has NZ5209 listed as coded '9' but wrongly has NZ5201 as '01'.
John
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Post by Antonio on Mar 25, 2024 14:15:30 GMT 12
Needless to say, the above photo of 5201 is an RNZAF official photograph, almost certainly taken at Espiritu Santo following assembly at the Base Depot Workshops. Paint looks in fairly good nick. Yes of course it is - I should have checked there first. Here is the direct link: PR3250 |
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Post by jeeiii on Mar 27, 2024 14:39:26 GMT 12
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