Drill and Discipline

[Dave Homewood]

At the recent Armistice Event in Cambridge the organisers had cadets from the local cadet units, Matamata ATC (and maybe Hamilton?), Army Cadets and the Sea Scouts, doing certain tasks at the official parade and service.

Those on the parade were simply tasked with holding the tape in place to stop the crowd wandering onto the road into the path of the vehicles in the parade. I noted some of the Army cadets were totally ignoring the SNCO cadet and the adult 'officer', and simply allowing the tape to slacken as they chatted. that alone looked terrible in public, ignoring simple orders which were given over and over.

later during the service, some of them did very well with things like lowering and raising the flags, etc, but others really showed themselves up. The 8 or so from mixed units charged with holding the wreaths for taking up to the Cenotaph, were to put it simply, slackers. They would come to attention for a few minutes and then drift off and stand how they wished. I noted some at attention when others were at ease. And one in particular when at ease had his hand down the back of his pants!!!

The service is a mere 40 minutes but at least two had to go and sit down after about 30 minutes - this can be understood if it were a parade on a hot day (which it wasn't) or if they'd not eaten breakfast (possible), but it certainly shows them up a little I thought.

In past years the real army (4th Hauraki Regt) have undertaken all the duties that the cadets were doing. I don't know why they were not present this year, possibly overseas commitments. And the Re-enactors usually also cover some of the duties with the Army. I hope next year after the poor display this time round that more experienced real soldiers will be used again.

I'm not having a go at the cadets, I realise they're all kids and doing their best. But I was really wondering when they are on important public duties such as this, why they were not better practised at their drill. Even their marching was slovenly.

On average, how much concentartion is put into parade drill in the cadets? Is it a low priority? Was this just a bad day for individuals?

I have to say the worst offenders were Army cadets, most of the ATC and Sea Scouts were good.

I guess as an ex-servicemanI notice it more than others too.

Any thoughts?

[planeimages]

Says something about old Sar'Majors and drill Sergeants. Put the fear of God into them even if they are cadets.

[Dave Homewood]

There was an Army Cadet SNCO, he was well disciplined and even had the Army accent down pat. Plus he had his own swagger stick complete with gold knob, which he used with great effect. A real little Battry Sgt Major Williams from It Ain't Half Hot Mum, he was. Not bad for a 16 year old.

But sadly his troops just were not listening to him. :-) I felt sorry for the little blighter as he was doing his best to make it right.

[phil82]

A gold knob eh? I've always wanted one like that!

[flyjoe180]

When I was an ATC cadet and later officer I found the army cadets (Cadet Corps) to be more obsessed with their drill and bearing, and there were a lot of little sar' majors (and big ones too!). The ATC and sea cadets were more oriented towards their individual service traditions, which probably meant less time drilling and more time doing aviation or maritime stuff.

In my last few years in cadets I felt the standard was slipping all round. In the past there were quite a few of us who went through the ranks as cadets and went on to become the organisation's leaders. Unfortunately that doesnt happen much now, and more 'instant puds' (i.e. civvie military virgins - just add water) have come into the system. Their intentions are good, it's a time consuming and thankles task and the cadets do need officers, but that has to be balanced with experience too. So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the standard you are seeing today on such parades as Dave described, is due to that watering down; almost more scouty than military (no offence to any scouts or scout leaders intended)

[phil82]

I agree Flyjoe.

As a serving officer, I'm afraid I met a few of the military wannabe's serving as ATC Officers, and whose sole connection with anything military was the desire to look that way by wearing a uniform. Those that had been cadets themselves were obvious! One particular guy got himself into the unpopularity stakes by bringing all sorts of people into the Mess to celebrate his elevated status.

Personally, I've always been a bit disappointed in the manner ATC Cadets in particular have been 'used'at air shows. There has to be a balance in maintaining their interest in being there, in uniform, and the tasks they are given.

I went to an air show a few years ago, on a very hot day, and noticed a couple of young girls in uniform and fully exposed to the sun. They were already suffering what would undoubtedly result in a bad case of sunburn on arms and faces, and I suggested they might like to find a job in the shade, but they insisted their 'officer' had told them they had to remain where they were. I went looking for this gentleman and told him who I was and that he might like to pay some attention to the first rule of being an officer, look after your people! He at least did the decent thing and took all of the cadets down to the St John tent for free sunblock. I notice now that they have proper sun hats issued.

[Dave Homewood]

Well done Colin for looking out for them. In situations like airshows I've always thought that the ATC do a great job, giving up their freedom to wander around like the rest of the people so as to do the menial airshow tasks like parking attendant or rope guard. I have no problem with them in this role, unless as you point out, they're being used. It was the ceremonial duties being done badly where we usually had professional soldiers in their place that really annoyed me - and I don't blame the kids one bit, it's the people in charge that created the situation. I have put my name forward to join the committee and try to right some of the wrongs, but sadly it appraently means fortnightly, then weekly, meetings council style for about 8 months!

[flyjoe180]

Good on you for supporting their committee Dave. The support committees are hardly ever acknowledged, and as you say it is a big committment. I hope you are able to guide them a bit better. There can sometimes be a bit of animosity between committees and the uniformed people; I've seen at least three ATC squadrons just about tear themselves apart due to a lack of understanding by committee members of their actual role. Committee provides 'support' as prescribed in the NZCF Policy and Administration Manual (PAM) and the committee charter for that particular corps. The other is 'operational'. Just be careful about crossing any lines; have you thought about helping in the capacity of a 'civilian instructor' instead? Either way I'm sure your contribution will be gratefully accepted.

[dpdouglas]

Hi there guys, I am an Air Cadet at 30 squadron we also had cadets/NCOs at an Armistice parade at swanson RSA there very little of us but we all were put on as flag raisers and also in auckland pretty much (judging what you said about the cadets down south) have a reasonable amount of drill practice and it is true the army cadets do practise more on drill than any other NZCF corps. Yet it is the ATC which has their own drill competition. Also at 30 squadron we won the northern area efficiency test and came 2nd in NZ for efficiency all cadets and NCO's and Officers Respect one another at our squadron and support each other with that.. We don't have i think any NCOs or Officers that think they are above everyone and create a double standard. Which is ridiculous what they are doing in central north island although what the cadets are like can reflect by how many training staff they have the area of land they parade on and other factors. Which could be the reason why they are like this , any other comments?

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for your views Darren. When I was watchign the cadets here I was thinking about you and how you said your unit did well in the drill competition. I was thinking I wish 30 Squadron was here instead of this shambles.

The ATC and Sea Cadets were not the worst, the army cadets were. which is surprising by all the comments of how they theoretically do more drill.

I guess it must be their inexperience, lack of training and possibly as you suggest a lack of staff.

I still admire them for giving it a go, getting out on a Sunday and joining in. I just hope that they are either better next year or they get the adult real soldiers to do their roles again instead of the cadets.

[dpdouglas]

Okay the thing is when squadrons focus more on the ATC aspects of the NZCF like Aviation, Bushcraft then Drill can be slack because of the lack in practice and lessons.

[dpdouglas]

But one thing that our sqn does that I dont know whether the southern units do is we have a pretty long ensign raising parade and short lowering parade every night that we parade. so we get good at what we do.

[30sqnatc]

Much of this thread occured before I joined so it made interesting reading. Great to hear 30 Sqn is still winning. Way back in my days in the Sqn when we paraded in Ponsonby Drill Hall we won the drill (Davy Memorial???) and shooting competitions.

Things have changed as I can't recall during my 3 years in the ATC any of the cadet forces parading or even being involved in any public ceremony. Mind you at that time the RF were significantly larger and the total NZDF overseas commitment consisted of about 10 Army officers in UN appointments so they had far less things to keep then busy.

Once I joined the regular force I recall routinely spending days rehearsing for ceremonial parades and endless working hours spit polishing boots.

Now the boot is on the other foot. The RF are significantly smaller and way way more operationally committed. In recent years I have only been on one parade other than ANZAC Day.

Paul

[dpdouglas]

Lately what has been happening at my unit in terms of discipline for the cadets is that us as NCOs have been told we are not allowed to stand cadets to Attention if they talk over the expected level I mean when I was a cadet the one reason I wanted to become an NCO because I was told to stand to attention every single parade night during break over very little bad things and now we are being told to slacken our strictness because cadets aren't tough enough and so they leave I mean when I was a cadet we got told to stand to attention and we learnt not to do it we didnt leave. besides we have too many cadets as it is and they are afraid to lose them.

[flyjoe180]

I dont wish to sound like the old man who tells stories of walking to school in barefeet in inches of snow in blizzards with a raisin for a lunch, but I recall it was not uncommon to be marched around the parade ground with a rifle above one's head for various misdemeanours, or sweeping a parade ground with an old broom whilst an NCO reminded you why you were there at the top of their lungs. Didnt hurt me, nor anyone else for that matter (at the time it was rather harsh). People are far too PC now. Not their fault, we have dumbed down our society and taught everyone they have rights, even when those rights extend to diverting away from the flavour, and subverting the disciplne methods, of a military or quasi-military organisation. Those methods had worked for years. The same problem exists in the armed forces I am sure. If you read Dave's story on his RNZAF entry course (very interesting by the way Dave), you will see what I mean. No way would anyone get away with talking to people like that now.

Two pieces of advice though. Firstly, any instructor or teacher who gets angry and scalds their student during education or tutoring has a problem. They are hiding an inadequacy or frustration of their own. Secondly, never forget where you come from, and treat others the way you expect to be treated. One day those in rank below you may become your boss or workmate, or even friend. The keyword is empathy.

[atcassidy_30hobby]

As the "mummy nco" of our dear unit i must admit after their basic training their drill has really picked up. I think they got a rude awakening when they heard my drill voice for the very first time their attitude completely changed towards me which was awesome.

I dont make it my mission to make them cry i care for them and am their instructor and i do require their respect, they have my respect and in turn i have theirs.
It is certainly a delicate relationship, that between the instructor and the student and it takes a bit to find balance but i find that taking the cadet/s asside and giving them a good talking to in which they are able to voice their side of it works alot better than yelling at the cadet and belittling them infront of cadets.
I suppose it is because when you talk to them in an authoritive but caring tone they see that there is method behind your madness and that you're not just moaning and whining because you're having a bad day.

Once you educate the cadets and teach them that there is a time and a place for everything and teach them when and where particular activities of theirs are performed they will soon realise that the drill square is a serious place.
I have managed to have alot of fun in atc, I know that I can relax and chat at times but when on the drill square everything is proper.

Also, alot of ncos use empty threats. First off, why are we threatening our cadets??? We shouldn't have to! Discipline them, sit them at room when they disobey orders! Do not tell them you'll "get them" later. As for the not being able to use drill on our cadets, thats a load of wallys in my opinion. I think what they really want is a balance, only use when necessary. Standing them at attention too often discourages the cadets, especially if its only a small group thats being rowdy. Never standing them at attention makes them slack, they start to think they can do whatever they want. As a general rule of thumb not more than 3 times per parade night. If problems persist, fatigues! It's as simple as that!

Fatigues can also be misused. Only put the cadet on fatigues if they have been warned first. Also make sure that the offense is fatigues worthy, don't put them on for stupid things eg. giggling during break (it's called break for a reason..don't we want them happy?)
If the offense is serious, send them to the adj!

We have a system in place for everything, we just need to use them (and use them properly, its like medicine, don't overdose and don't stop taking it..take as perscribed or as needed) and we will run like a smooth well oiled blue machine!

And, my dears, when we are are a smooth well oiled blue machine are cadets will respect us and themselves and in turn understand how important proper drill is. Once that is achieved they will look just as good as the ncos and officers (of 30 sqn) on parade.
(As i'm rather pedantic when it comes to drill its really something for me to say we look good on parade.)

Love from
Cass

[atcassidy_30hobby]

Also something i forgot to add. Lead by example if you want them quiet during briefing and snappy and disciplined on the drill square you have to give them something to imitate.
How can you expect something from your subordinates that you can not do yourselves.
Also back to that respect thing when they respect themselves they respect the corps that are a part of and hold high the uniform that they wear, therefore they will do their utmost best to avoid doing anything that will bring them and the corps into disrepute.

If they respect you they will follow you, what you put out to them is what you will recieve back. Show them an disciplined nco with good drill and you will get a disciplined cadet with good drill.

[atcassidy_30hobby]

oh and for "30sqnatc" the ol' unit is still going strong in the shooting, we didn't enter the last davy memorial because we had just gotten the new dptas (cricket bats) and only ncos knew how to drill em.

We wanted to use the ol slr's but didn't want to think of ourselves as the "exception". Don't worry expect 30 sqn to win the next dmt.

We're also the most efficient unit in northern and second in nz, dont worry chch will be put in thier place this time.

Have you heard about the new marksman badges? They have three grades I believe. It's quite good that way more cadets will be recognised as it is so hard to get marksman. Once of our flight sergeants has gotten over 80 (the minimum for marksman) in various competitions and still didn't get the badge!

[flyjoe180]

What is a DPTAS cricket bat? A Steyr DP?

[atcassidy_30hobby]

drill purpose training aid. a lightweight wooden thing thats meant to look like a steyr