Drill and Discipline

[flyjoe180]

So no longer called a DP rifle then? PC again?

[atcassidy_30hobby]

yes! it is for the "newer generation" of cadet, which should not be left to "tire" due to the "immense weight" of the dp rifle...apparently its unfair on the little guys to have the old faithful rifles.....

[flyjoe180]

A favourite punishment (before the changes to how one could be punished) was to be double timed around the parade square with the SLR above one's head. All the more punishment because the rifle was filled with concrete. Ah, the memories... I never reoffended for the same infringments again after those sessions.

[lumpy]

Heck , I only ever got to ues the SLR on my JnrNco course , our armoury ( as they all were then ) was full of the good ol 303 ( and of course our target rifles - sleeved down 303's ) :-)

[flyjoe180]

Oh yeah, I remember those weapons. The Lee Enfield .303 cut down to .22 calibre. Mark 4 number 8 or number 9 I think the versions were. All for rimfire .22 single loaded rounds. I recall using a real SLR on a NCO course too, but back at the unit we had the concrete filled DP Rifles with an SLR body.

[wazzawiseman]

well ( im Ex Army RNZIR and Ex airforce GSI), i recently joined the ATC to help them with such things to help them improve and i even took the step of getting comissioned.....i would like to say if you dont like the way drill or discipline is going why dont you go along and help (they very much appreciate any help they can get, in any form), and i regards to the person that commented on some people being "wannabes whose only connection is wearing the uniforms, thats not commpetly true for all....some never wanted to join the military and never had that interest and they get asked to go to comissioning for a commitment to the unit ......whe have a guy currently in that situation that had never been introduced to anything military in his life but he really loves doing it and is going on commissioning course to show his commitment to NZCF, and as such they put him in a uniform...........so before you critises think of all the facts.....and maybe instead in bitching go and lend a hand.....thanks for my 2 cents

[flyjoe180]

Dec 30, 2011 17:32:42 GMT 12 wazzawiseman said:

i regards to the person that commented on some people being "wannabes whose only connection is wearing the uniforms, thats not commpetly true for all....some never wanted to join the military and never had that interest and they get asked to go to comissioning for a commitment to the unit ......whe have a guy currently in that situation that had never been introduced to anything military in his life but he really loves doing it and is going on commissioning course to show his commitment to NZCF, and as such they put him in a uniform...........so before you critises think of all the facts.....and maybe instead in bitching go and lend a hand.....thanks for my 2 cents

Hello wazzawiseman. You might mike to find out more about phil82's past before you make assumptions. His post was in response to mine. I spent 18 years with NZCF as a cadet and officer. You may want to read the thread properly before accusing others of not lending a hand.

[wazzawiseman]

[/quote]

Hello wazzawiseman. You might mike to find out more about phil82's past before you make assumptions. His post was in response to mine. I spent 18 years with NZCF as a cadet and officer. You may want to read the thread properly before accusing others of not lending a hand. [/quote]

this is a discussion group, and im entitled to the way i read what is written and reply as are you

[beagle]

drill and discipline
I remeber on basic engineering I broke 3 drill bits one day and the discipline was a good yelling at and being called a useless person, or words to that effect.

[luke6745]

Having only just read this thread, I can see where Dave and others are coming from.

It's quite easy to slack off during drill lessons without fear of repercussions. I myself slacked off during lessons, and the only punishments I received were being sent out of the lesson or having to spend 5 or so minutes sweeping the corridor. Neither of these punishments were effective, they don't teach you anything nor deter you from doing what you did wrong again. In turn, drill and discipline becomes slack. It was only after a "talking to" from a certain SWO that my behaviour improved.

In my opinion, marching cadets around the parade with rifles above their heads would do wonders. But of course, doing that with those plywood DPTAs wouldn't teach them anything either. DPTAs are the single worst part of the ATC to be honest. It's embarrassing parading with them. I think we should use the Norinco .22s as drill rifles instead. In fact, we should fill them with concrete as well because it would be an improvement in terms of functionality. Just about every time we go for a shoot, at least one rifle breaks or malfunctions. I've lost count of how many times they've jammed or misfired on me.

So it's my opinion as a cadet, that we need to get rid of the PC bullcrap and start dishing out real punishments and we'll see an improvement.

[baronbeeza]

woweee..

I am surprised to see talk like this in NZ. It really seems like Hollywood stuff.

So it's my opinion as a cadet, that we need to get rid of the PC bullcrap and start dishing out real punishments and we'll see an improvement.

Although it has been a few decades since I did my service I can't see how things could have changed that much.

If I tried antics like that, I would have expected to be redressed.. perhaps even get a formal warning.

Perhaps others here may have had other experiences of their time in the RNZAF. I certainly never heard anything like it.


I did time in the ATC.. I thought it was voluntary. You just rocked up as there was no selection procedure as such.
You rock up and you can waltz out at any time.

I would have been a dancer if some 'little Hitler' tried that on me.

[obiwan27]

I did 11 years in the ATC working my way through to Pilot Officer before I left. I agree that the ATC, as part of the NZ Cadet Forces has always been a voluntary organisation. You choose to join up but also when to leave.

I think there is a misunderstanding here in the earlier posts of what discipline entails. Certainly you'd expect a young inexperienced JNCO to fall into the trap of going into screaming, shouting and threatening mode.

Often that has the opposite effect to waht you desire.

In my experience it was better to have the JNCOs in charge of their own section of say 6 cadets, the SNCOs in charge of each flight of 12-18 and the Squadron Warrant Officer overseeing the lot.

As a SWO I saw my role as being the standard setter for all of the NCOs, as well as a wiser more experienced 'head' for the younger NCOs to go to for advice. The NCOs set the standards in dress and discipline and our role was to encourage and help the cadets to achieve the same standards.

Discipline was maintained largely by the NCOs by demonstrating the kinds of disciplined behaviour that we expected of our charges. Any 'problem' cadets were referred up to the officers. Many of these either didn't want to be there or were unwilling to conform to the requirements of the organisation and therefore left.

It is very dangerous territory indeed to talk about dishing out 'real' punishments. The most effective punishment I found was to exclude troublemakers/non-conformists from Squadron activities and they either sorted their shit out or left.

Any other kind of 'disciplne' meted out as a punishment is proof that you lack the means to effectively control and lead a group of people of a similar age group. If you are having problems with unruly cadets have a look in the mirror first.

[baronbeeza]

Yep, have to agree that makes more sense.

In my time in the ATC, which was probably about two years, I know I was a Cpl. I am not too sure if I ever had Sgt stripes.

I cannot ever recall any yelling, or punishment... ever. Somehow I think the Squadron numbers would have reduced dramatically if it came to that.


The RNZAF has military law of course. Discipline and punishments are strictly by the book.
The law works both ways and generally the subordinate has the right of redress if he/she believes they have been wronged.

As I mentioned earlier, the only times I have ever seen guys running around with guns above their heads and similar carry-on was in the movies.

Recruit training may have been a little different and I am sure some of the other ex-servicemen
may have experiences to recount there.

I did very little drill in the RNZAF, indeed I did one 15 month stint without a parade.
We did make an effort to keep in step when walking around Base but that wasn't enforced.

We did one parade at Wigram in the 80's. It was a Wing parade so was quite big. During the rehearsal someone managed to come out with the 'Whoa' command. We must have all been a bit rusty and it drew some chuckles. The Base Adj was the GSI I believe and was a little gobsmacked.

I would just hate for the youngsters to think that drill plays a big part in service life.
Twenty minutes a week would be more than enough for me.

I did an ensign hoisting parade that I will never forget, it was a cold winter's day and we were a little late on the 'off'. By the time we got to the flagpole the flag was already fluttering.- you beauty.
The parade didn't even stop just a few quick wheels and we were back on the way to work.
We didn't even bother to throw a salute.
Nothing was ever said.

[Dave Homewood]

Thisa is a very old thread back form the dead. As it happenes the drill of the cadets at this year's Armisitice parde was excellent.

[lumpy]

Jan 1, 2012 21:47:58 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Thisa is a very old thread back form the dead. As it happenes the drill of the cadets at this year's Armisitice parde was excellent.

Interesting stuff , all the same Dave ( as a cadet that went as far as ( acting ) WO .

[luke6745]

I never meant for "real punishments" to be used regularly. ONLY ever as a last resort. I'm not talking about flogging them for christ sake. And when I say real punishments, I'm talking about something like sweeping a path in silence and alone for about 20-30mins. That won't kill them. Plus it's better than aimlessly standing in a corridor after being sent out of a lesson. Nor am I talking about yelling and swearing at cadets obsessively. I think people are taking this the wrong way here.

[luke6745]

It's good to her other people's opinions on the subject. It's interesting how everyone's opinions differ. But at the end of the day my ideas on discipline will never happen, so they doesn't really matter do they?

Controversial, controversial, controversial... haha

[Howe]

Haha luke you and your flight were regular little horrors for inexperienced NCOs to teach in 2010-11!

As advice to other NCOs teaching troublesome cadets, number one rule: DONT LOSE YOUR TEMPER! You look stupid and the cadets lose respect for you. Since physical punishments are prohibited anyway, and like luke said, the alternatives dont achieve much at all, It's a better idea to make your lesson as interesting as possible, include interactive activities and offer praise when cadets do the right things.
An interesting technique i discovered last year was somehow getting prof flight to enjoy my lessons so much that when a cadet talked out of turn, i could stop talking and 'lose interst in teaching'. The other cadets would be quick to shush the talkative one and actually apologise for their behaviour!
It's strange reading about cadets performing badly on parade because, for all the childish behaviour that can (and does) happen during classroom lessons, at 1 Sqn, when we're parading even the troublemakers seem to become model cadets.

[expatkiwi]

My ATC training (I was a member from 1977 to 1982) stood me in good stead here in the USA. I'm an officer in the Civil Air Patrol and before I moved out to Arkansas, I lived in Los Angeles. I trained the honor guard cadets in my CAP Squadron in NZ cenotaph drill and they were utilized at the 2008 Anzac Day Commemorations held at the Los Angeles National Military Cemetary at the invitation of the New Zealand Consul-General. I did the Anzac Day commemorations in 1980 at the War Memorial Museum in Auckland, so I knew the drill movements. The CAP Squadron (Squadron 153, Los Alamitos Cadet Squadron) got an official letter of appreciation from the Consulate General.

[phil82]

I had a golden rule to never use rank to resolve a problem, if that's your last resort then you've failed, miserably. There are many ways to deal with issues, and the Catch22 "Me Major you Captain" never works.