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Post by corsair67 on Jul 27, 2009 22:26:50 GMT 12
Sorry, what was the question? ;D
Great memories there, Colin.
There's something kind of nice about the Victor - and to tell you the truth I actually think they look far more stylish than the Vulcan.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Jul 28, 2009 10:50:00 GMT 12
I'm enjoying this thread.
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Post by phil82 on Jul 28, 2009 13:39:43 GMT 12
I'm enjoying this thread. OK. When I arrived at Cottesmore in 1960, the CO was Johnny Johnson, and like all COs of flying stations, he flew the Victor, but only with a QFI in the right-hand seat. We still knew when he was flying, because his approaches started rather closer inbound than the regular pilots! Try as I might, I never did wangle a ride in one; I was always fobbed off with the reason that escape training would take too long! Head on at three miles or so out, the Victor had a very 'big-shouldered' appearance because of the huge intakes at the wing roots, and the fact that the leading edge flaps were always down which tended to make the wing disappear. The attitude for landing was only slightly nose up, then came the contact of the main wheels, followed immediately the nose came down by the release of the huge drogue chute. To prevent this happening too soon and at too high a landing speed, the chute was designed to break away, and when this happened, you knew your day was about to be ruined by some very hot brakes! I htink the chute also released ifn the crosswond component was higher than a pre-determined level. I should mention that the very first trials unit of four Victor B2 s arrived in 1961 I think, and they were a very different and much-improved version of the ones that came to Ohakea. It was the B2 of course which went on to the low-level role and camouflage paint, and then to become tankers. The one which crashed on approach which I mentioned earlier, was the very first "V" bomber crash from which all five crew got out. The Victor had a very unusual means of loading 'weapons', that is the non-conventional type, which were carried on a very low bomb trolley, and raised up into the bomb bay by means of a cherry -picker from the outside! Real Heath-Robinson, but it worked! Those weapons weren't that big by the way; but with lots of "Remove before Flight" tags. There was no concession to aerodynamics either! They were simply dropped, and designed to create instant sunshine over the target! I parked a very large vehicle once and unbeknown to me a contractor had illegally parked his brand-new Vauxhall Victor behind me, and I couldn't see it. So I sort of gave it a nudge when I backed up, and while it wasn't my fault, I went back to the Fire Section and told the Flt Sgt, a bit of a martinet; :"Sorry Chief, but I've just hit a Victor" . The joy of watching the colour drain from his face was absolute! I guess you had to be there! |
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jul 28, 2009 19:05:18 GMT 12
I find it fascinating that if someone had asked me "Did the Victor ever visit New Zealand" I would have said no.
I can clearly remember the other-worldly shape of a Vulcan flying overhead small-town NZ, but never a Victor.
Live and Learn.
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Post by mumbles on Jul 29, 2009 11:19:13 GMT 12
Thanks for those stories Colin, I always enjoy reading your memories. When those aircraft crashed, what was the procedure for you guys as fire crews regarding the nuclear weapons onboard? Must have been tricky and scary? From what I understand of the nature of the weapons, the chance of accidental nuclear detonation in a crash is practically nil. In addition to the built in safeguards, the physics involved require very precisely timed things to occur in sequence, so unless the thing is armed and jittery it probably won't vapourise anything. Scattering nuclear material all over the place after the conventional trigger explosives cook off though is a definite possibility, and happened at least once in the UK after a B-47 crash IIRC. |
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Post by corsair67 on Jul 29, 2009 12:09:18 GMT 12
A B-52G spilled its cargo of four hydrogen bombs across Spain and the Mediterranean in 1966, after colliding with a KC-135 tanker during an aerial refuel. Although the weapons' nuclear cargo didn't explode, the conventional explosive onboard certainly did on a couple of the bombs, leading to the release of a radioactive material cloud. There is more about this incident at - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 29, 2009 12:46:35 GMT 12
I'd think there would be a special procedure in dealing with a crash of a nuclear bomber whether the nukes exploded or not, in terms of the security measures of evacuating the public, keeping the photographers away, ascertaining if there is any radiation leak, etc. It would not be just a normal crash site clean up, would it?
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Post by phil82 on Jul 29, 2009 13:13:27 GMT 12
I'd think there would be a special procedure in dealing with a crash of a nuclear bomber whether the nukes exploded or not, in terms of the security measures of evacuating the public, keeping the photographers away, ascertaining if there is any radiation leak, etc. It would not be just a normal crash site clean up, would it? That would be true , of course; it just "never happened", did it!!!!! As they say, burn before reading! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 29, 2009 15:18:49 GMT 12
Ah, all hush hush.
I see.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 29, 2009 15:56:02 GMT 12
OJ has sent through another photo in the same series of shots, not the Victor this time but the CFS aircraft arriving as seen in the background of a previous photo. Great shot! OJ says: "Here is one more, not of the Victor, but the same series from Owen Cunliffe. It is the Central Flying School from Wigram again, a little later than the first shot, arriving at Ohakea in March 1964 for the Open Day Air Show. From the original formation of 18 aircraft (six Devons and 12 Harvards), four Harvards peeled off and accelerated forward in a shallow dive then went into a formation aerobatic display as the remainder of CFS continued overhead. You may notice the rear-most four Harvards are a little ragged in formation. May be wake turbulence or more likely distracted slightly by watching their mates performing to their starboard!"  |
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Post by John L on Jul 29, 2009 18:25:18 GMT 12
Sure do. It's really interesting!
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Post by phil82 on Jul 29, 2009 19:30:22 GMT 12
Bomber Command as it was in the days of the Victor with its nuclear deterrent, was high priority, for everything! The airfields had to be kept open at all costs...and it sometimes snows in England!
We at Cottesmore weren't the only ones to have Meteor snow melters, that is an old Meteor engine on a sort of bomb trolley, with a small amount of fuel, and yes, they did tie them to a Hippo tanker. Most onlookers used to watch from a safe distance, because the control over the engine blowing snow, and threatening a two-mile dash down the runway pushing a Hippo fuel tanker was a fine line! Funnily enough, I was at the Avalon air show at Geelong in Victoria, Australia in February one year, and they displayed a Meteor 8, and my son [the real Sam!] commented on the strange noise the engines made. It was music to my ears I can tell you! Anyway, get the engine revs wrong, and you melted the snow which instantly became ice, and it was a fun day parking on the end of the runway and watching every other vehicle come around and skate gracefully off the taxiway.
They also had snow-ploughs on those fuel tankers; specialising in the removal of runway and taxi lights! Snow was a very real problem in that you know where everything is, but take away all references and you're lost!
As mentioned earlier, the first trials Sqn of the Victor B2 was at Cottesmore. Four aircraft under a very friendly Sqn Ldr who's name I've sadly forgotten. They certainly flew a lot.
I loved the surreal night landings, often of four aircraft, and especially in the rain. The Victor seemed bigger, and with all the orange pan lighting and aircraft lights reflecting off the wet concrete, I only wish I'd had a camera. Illegal of course! Once the first one was down and obligingly dropped the chute, we had to move it and ourselves off the runway smartly because we could see the lights of the next one. It simply wouldn't have been good enough for an aircraft to have to go around because we hadn't got the runway clear, though I can admit now there were times when I simply hitched the hot shackle to the back of the Landrover in order to do so! Needs must.
If you ever wanted to increase your vocabulary, you could go and watch the lineys reload those 'chutes, and listen to the curses bestowed on whoever designed the housing. Apparently it required a wrist action with a 90 degree turn to do it! Not even armourers had that!
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Post by phil82 on Jul 31, 2009 10:33:02 GMT 12
Ok, one final post before the thread disappears. As you may have gathered, when those three arrived at Ohakea I looked on them as old friends!
The Victors, like all the "V"s had a dispersal plan. In the event of an attack they would leave their main operating base, and fly to various airfields around the country, and await events. If one of those were a series of brilliant white flashes, I guess they would have taken off to head for a pre-determined target. Those targets weren't revealed to we peasants, but there was a "Target Room" in which crews spent a lot of time! You had to have a really good reason to be in there, so that didn't apply to us! Now to transport crews to and from those dispersals, the powers that be decided to purchase a number of twin-engined Beagles [the 206?], only to find that, with all five members of a V crew and all their gear, the Beagle was a bit cramped and struggled to get off the ground!
There were always schemes afoot to keep the force on its toes, and they had code names, like "Mickey Finn". Depending on the state they were in that code would have the four aircraft permanently on standby start-up and taxi up the runway, and sometimes take-off. Each aircraft had its own pan, and everything was pre-flighted for take-off. All four engines were started at the same time, in itself not a normal procedure, and the aircraft then accelerated straight out of the pan which was angled to the runway, then it was open the taps and away. As the first aircraft got airborne, numbers two and three would be hard on his tail, and the last aircraft would be hitting the runway, they were that close. They didn't mess about either, once airborne, they all broke away in different directions. This was, to any aircraft aficionado, a truly magnificent and unforgettable scene. The noise would rattle your ears! I never really gave it much thought at the time, but watching that take-off could well have been the last thing any of us saw if it was for real.Of course, being firmly rooted at a primary target bomber base, we'd have been painlessly vapourised ourselves, long before they crossed the Norwegian coast... :uhoh: I'd have never forgiven the Russians for firing an ICBM at me!
Of course the poor old lineys on the pan had to clear up all the loose items, like cables and chocks, because the first aircraft to take-off would be about ready to land and would requirean after-flight, including fuel...life went on.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Jul 31, 2009 15:12:05 GMT 12
Really interesting memories there.
Did you ever hear about what the bomber crews were to do after they had retaliated, where would they go? I'm guessing a full on nuclear exchange would have stuffed Europe completely? If so, did any of the crews realise this could be a one way trip?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 1, 2009 19:47:07 GMT 12
When those Victors and Vulcans came to NZ, would they likely have been carrying nuclear weapons?
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Post by shorty on Aug 1, 2009 20:21:49 GMT 12
When those Victors and Vulcans came to NZ, would they likely have been carrying nuclear weapons? Why would they want to be doing that? And how many spare weapons did you think the Brit Govt had? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 1, 2009 21:28:04 GMT 12
I wondered if they might be going onwards from here to one of their testing sites like Woomera or Christmas Island or wherever. I doubt they'd bring any nuclear bomb loads all this way but I have no idea so I thoguht I'd ask those who know more.
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Post by mumbles on Aug 1, 2009 21:33:42 GMT 12
I wondered if they might be going onwards from here to one of their testing sites like Woomera or Christmas Island or wherever. I doubt they'd bring any nuclear bomb loads all this way but I have no idea so I thoguht I'd ask those who know more. As far as I know it was mostly Valiants involved in the British weapons testing programme. I'd think it highly unlikely any aircraft sent here were armed in any way. Too much hassle for no particular gain. |
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Post by shorty on Aug 1, 2009 21:47:56 GMT 12
It would also cut down on the space for the duty free loot!
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Post by mumbles on Aug 1, 2009 21:59:02 GMT 12
Really interesting memories there. Did you ever hear about what the bomber crews were to do after they had retaliated, where would they go? I'm guessing a full on nuclear exchange would have stuffed Europe completely? If so, did any of the crews realise this could be a one way trip? Short answer to the last question: "Yes". There was / is a huge thread on pprune about V-bomber ops, particularly Vulcans ( www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/111797-did-you-fly-vulcan-merged.html ). There is also an excellent article in the March 2005 issue of 'Aeroplane' magazine on what a 'for real' launch of the V-force would have entailed, written by a former Vulcan bomb aimer. While some of the former aircrew refuse to discuss war plans even now, others have touched on the subject (a lot of the material is no longer secret), and the feeling is that the crews were highly cognisant of the fact that at the very least they wouldn't have a base to return to. One mentioned finding a nice girl in Mongolia to settle down with as I recall! Planned recovery sites included bases in places like Norway, Turkey and Iran (whether or not the Soviets thought of this and planned to zap those bases as well is an interesting question). The feeling one gets is that recovery and regeneration of the strike aircraft was a distant second priority to getting the QRA force aloft and on the way. Bomber Command aircraft would have arrived at their targets after the initial ICBM strikes, but before SAC bombers arrived from the US. How's that for safe flying conditions? |
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