Kiwi Ace versus Ace?

[Dave Homewood]

I was wondering, does anyone know of any German, Italian or Japanese aces who are actually known to have had one-to-one aerial combat with any of the New Zealand WWII aces?

Were any Axis aces shot down by kiwi aces? Were any kiwi aces shot down by Axis aces?

[phasselgren]

Michael Herrick was killed in a one-to-one fight with the German ace Robert Spreckels (12 kills).

From New Zealand Fighter Pilots Museum:
In May 305 began daylight free-lance intrusions over enemy territory. Herrick took off on a morning sortie on 16 June with Flying Officer Turski as navigator. It was Herrick’s first such operation and he headed for Denmark in company with another Mosquito, captained by Wing Commander Bob Braham. At the Jutland coast they parted, Herrick making for the airfield at Aalborg and Braham for Copenhagen.

Herrick’s Mosquito was intercepted and shot down by a FW 190 flown by Leutnant Spreckels.

Both Herrick and Turski baled out but were too low; Turski’s body was found in the woods where the Mosquito crashed but Herrick, who had fallen into the sea, was not found until 4 July.

On 25 June Braham was also shot down by Speckels. When the two men met after the war the German said that Herrick had put up a brave fight.
(http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/article.asp?id=herrick)

I belive several Kiwi aces like Colin Gray and Evan Mackie shot down German aces but it need to check this.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Peter. I had no idea Herrick was shot down in a Mosquito, for some reason I thought he'd been killed in the Pacific.

[smithy]

Here's another which comes straight to mind...

Although it's not 100% certain, it is highly possible that when Cobber Kain was shot down in L1808 on the 2nd March 1940 he was the victim of Werner Mölders.

There's other examples of Kiwi aces in combat with Axis aces and I'll try to dig some more out for you later.

[Dave Homewood]

Wow, Cobber versus Molders, that's interesting.

[smithy]

Nothing specific but JG26 (the Abbeville Boys was full of aces) and 485 scrapped with them many times during '42, '43. There would've been many instances here of Kiwis fighting with German aces.

Just something more to add to the mix...

[smithy]

And if we go back 20 and a bit years Grid Caldwell fought both the German aces Werner Voss and Herman Becker. He also had a number of encounters with the Richthofen Circus.

Dave, if this is wrong for here feel free to delete or move it.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Tim, and WWI kiwi vs ace battles are totally appropriate, and as you say, pukka Sahib.

[alanw]

June 16 Smithy Wrote

Here's another which comes straight to mind...

Although it's not 100% certain, it is highly possible that when Cobber Kain was shot down in L1808 on the 2nd March 1940 he was the victim of Werner Mölders.

There's other examples of Kiwi aces in combat with Axis aces and I'll try to dig some more out for you later.

Hi just discovered this thread.

I have Aircraft of the Aces "Hurricanes to the fore"

The author states that Cobber Kain was shot down by a Feldebel Weigelt Which is where he recieved his burnt hands.

I have no way of actualy verifying if this is true, (other than what the author wrote) Smithy do you have any thing further on this?

Further to Aces, I don't know if he was an ace but in 1945 a Kiwi
pilot (don't know what sqn) a Warrent Officer OJ Mitchell flying a Tempest was KIA in a dog fight with Luftwaffe ace Josef Keil flying a FW Ta 152
According to the account Keil shot up Mitchells Tempest, but it seems that in the turning, Mitchell's aircraft stalled and as a result
dived into the ground

[smithy]

Jun 21, 2008 15:08:10 GMT 12 alanw said:

Hi just discovered this thread.

I have Aircraft of the Aces "Hurricanes to the fore"

The author states that Cobber Kain was shot down by a Feldebel Weigelt Which is where he recieved his burnt hands.

I have no way of actualy verifying if this is true, (other than what the author wrote) Smithy do you have any thing further on this?

Hi Alan,

Different authors and researchers say different things about this action and that's why I was careful to say "possible" in my original post Weigelt is another possibility. The most recent published research is probably by Many Souffan in "Replic" and he's in the Weigelt camp.

But as with most of these things it's a case of we'll probably never know for sure.

Cheers,

Smithy

[alanw]

Hi Smithy
Thanks for that

You're comment "we'll never know for sure" is so true for things like that.

Interestingly enough further in the text (after I re-read it) the author makes comment on Kains flight being involved with Molders and his squadron in a dog fight, later on but no mention of a shoot down of Kain by Molders

I guess like any thing, it also depends on the authors take on things!!!

Regards

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

Do the two German pilots' log books exist? They should be able to pinpoint who shot a Hurricane down that day (or were more than one shot down? I thought Cobber was alone when he was downed).

[smithy]

Jun 21, 2008 23:37:35 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Do the two German pilots' log books exist? They should be able to pinpoint who shot a Hurricane down that day (or were more than one shot down? I thought Cobber was alone when he was downed).

Cobber wasn't alone in this engagement Dave. On this sortie he was escorting a recce Potez 63 with Sergeants Sewell and Dibden. After escorting the Potez, Dibden had to pancake with engine trouble and Cobber went after some He111s he'd spotted with Sewell in tow. They followed them well into Germany but Sewell had fallen behind due to the fact he was in a two-blader Hurricane. Cobber gave up the chase and was promptly bounced by six 109s. The two Hurris were too far apart to offer mutual protection. Sewell was also clobbered in this engagement and force landed, as did Cobber.

Thus even with logbooks it's nigh on impossible to say with 100% accuracy who got who.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks. So was this the engagement where Cobber blacked out in a dive and came to just in time? I'm going by memory here so might have this confused with another incident.

[smithy]

Hi Dave,

No this is the one where his Hurri was on fire and he was about to get out when the flames subsided, he got back in and glided all the way back to Metz aerodrome. Cobber was very lucky, as by his own estimation he was around 30 miles on the wrong side of the line when he was hit.

[Deleted]

Hi Dave

Interesting Question. We may have already discussed this but Jack Rae was shot down by a minor German Ace from JG52 flying out of Cosimo in Sicily. Lt Herbert Soukup achieved 5 combat victories before being shot down himself over Malta by Lord David Douglas- Hamilton. Hamilton was not only Jack's Co at the time but he was leading the section when Jack was shot down. Jack Rae met him in hospital where he was recovering from serious damage to his foot caused by Soukup. Soukup in turn had a cannon shell through his arm (ouch!). Jack took Soukup's photo and had him write his name and address on a piece of hospital note paper. Jack gave these things to me along with the actual parachute he used when he bailed out after being attacked by Soukup. I have framed all this stuff (its not easy framing a 28 foot parachute) and it hangs on my wall.

When my house caught fire a couple of years back it was the first and almost the only thing I saved (imagine the call of "what about the kids photos" that I heard later). Because the parachute is rather bland I had Ron Fulstow paint a picture of the action which is in the frame as well.

I used the hospital note paper Soukup wrote on to track him down - thats a story in itself. Unfortunately it took me 2 years to find him and he died about the time I started. I have spoken at length to his son and grandson. One day I will finish a small book I have written about the event and what happened to both men - its called "One Combat" - what bought them to that place in the sky, who were they with, what had they achieved and what happened to them in their lives. I have a list of Soukup's combat - pictures of where he grew up and so on. I found it most fascinating - I wonder if others might.

While framing Jack's parachute I cut a bit off it - why I did this is part of the story - and I sometimes give a small piece of this remnant to people who have his book - they can keep it in memory of Jack and the event.

If you would like to post a picture of the parachute let me know and I will email it though and you can do it.

[corsair67]

That is an amazing story, flyinghilly, and yes if you can share your photo with us that'd be fantastic.

Your book sounds very interesting too - keep us posted as to it's progress.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Larry, please do send me the photo and I'll post it. The story is amazing, I wonder how many times two aces both shot down got to meet one another afterwards. Just the logistics of Jack keeping his parachute is amazing - did he have it repacked and re-use it for the rest of the war, or did he get issued a new one and keep this one as a keepsake?

You've mentioned your house fire to me before. Did you have to start all over with your massive book collection or was it able to be saved?