HMS Eagle Visit 1971

[skyhawkdon]

Shorty's photo of the RN Sea Vixen at Ohakea in his "stash" thread has got me interested, so I thought I would start a new thread on this and see what it turns up... I'm interested in any more photos or information for my book on the Skyhawks.

Six Skyhawks, three led by Fred Kinvig, three by Ken Gayfer, attacked HMS Eagle on the 15th of August 1971 while she was 450 miles (729km) west of New Zealand as part of Exercise Southern Cline. The 6 strikers flew far out into the Tasman so to attack Eagle at low level from the unexpected direction of west. An Orion was shadowing the RN fleet and provided the Skyhawks with regular position updates. 14 Squadron provided two "decoy" Skyhawks which deliberately flew into Eagle's radar range from the east. As hoped Eagle scrambled her fighters and sent them after the decoy Skyhawks (which turned away before being intercepted), leaving the door wide open for the main strike force. The strikers attacked at 50ft in rain and low cloud and weren't detected until within visual range of the ships. None of the aircraft were intercepted by Eagle's Sea Vixen fighters.

Three days later HMS Eagle reciprocated with Buccaneers and Sea Vixens striking Ohakea. Poor weather at sea meant the RN aircraft had to overnight at Ohakea. On their return to the carrier the following signal was sent to Ohakea from the Captain of HMS Eagle.

"I am appalled at the state in which you have returned my aircrew and only wish I could have been there to enjoy the fun as much as they have."

The original signal is in the 75 Sqn history.

Buccaneers and Skyhawks attacking Ohakea (or is that Skyhawks chasing Buccaneers attacking Ohakea!)


14 Sqn Flight Line with Buccaneers and Sea Vixens on line with Skyhawks (14 Sqn took over Skyhawk conversion training in January 1971)


View of 14 Sqn's Line looking the other way...

[FlyNavy]

From RNZAF Museum via Don Simms:

[flycookie]

Oct 20, 2008 20:11:47 GMT 12 skyhawkdon said:

........I would start a new thread on this and see what it turns up... I'm interested in any more photos or information for my book on the Skyhawks.

Six Skyhawks, three led by Fred Kinvig, three by Ken Gayfer, attacked HMS Eagle on the 15th of August 1971 while she was 450 miles (729km) west of New Zealand as part of Exercise Southern Cline.

Don, sounds like Sniff's account of the A-4K strike against Invincible in 83.

Thusly,

From this thread - rnzaf.proboards43.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=6637&page=2#51179

Three days later HMS Eagle reciprocated with Buccaneers and Sea Vixens striking Ohakea. Poor weather at sea meant the RN aircraft had to overnight at Ohakea.

Voila.............

Eagle in NZ waters, OK weather for deck landings. Returning from Ohakea.


and

Eagle in NZ waters, not-so-OK for deck landings. Aircraft still in Ohakea.



Eagle in Wellington Harbour, same deployment.



Pilot's view from a Sea Vixen on Eagle's waist cat, waiting for launch in NZ waters. Note the spray and muck all over the canopy, and steam venting from the forward cat. Same cruise.



Giant high-rez colour pics of above from here - www.eacott.com.au/gallery/v/navy_photos/eagle/


Also, on the other thread, someone mentioned Albion visiting, much earlier on. Here she is, entering a familiar port.

[Dave Homewood]

Great photos Don.

Did the RNZAF ever consider giving the Skyhawk pilots aircraft carrier landing practice? I know they were all proficient with arrestor hook landings, but operating from a carrier deck would have been another great skill to have for operating with allies.

Even our Avenger pilots were trained how to do it should the need arise so I guess the idea is feasible.

[FlyNavy]

I can't speak for the RNZAF, my question is: From which deck would potential RNZAFers have operated? I gather it would be USN or RN? Probably the RAAF Super Hornet pilots will get deck qualified if they train in the USN in the US but after that - nothing. Deck landing needs to be practiced ashore and afloat. It is not something to do once a year. Do you envisage the RNZAF maintainers keeping the RNZAF Skyhawks going afloat? That is another skill to be learnt in quite a different environment.

[FlyNavy]

Cookie, nice photos out there 'twould appear. ;D Thanks.

[Dave Homewood]

Oct 21, 2008 18:49:45 GMT 12 FlyNavy said:

Do you envisage the RNZAF maintainers keeping the RNZAF Skyhawks going afloat? That is another skill to be learnt in quite a different environment.

I wasn't envisaging anything. I was asking whether it was a skill or capability that was ever considered for the RNZAF pilots to learn, such as on exchanges to US carriers, when we had close ties with them. If war had kicked off in the Pacific and we were operating our fighter-bombers alongside the carrier task forces it might have been necessary for refuelling or simply emergency landings, etc. It was just a question as to whther such a thing had ever been considered.

[FlyNavy]

Now that you have given a context Dave then my answer can be more specific. No. Your RNZAF would not have considered such an option IMHO. Carrier aviation is a specific skill, needing to be practiced regularly both ashore and afloat.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks. That makes sense. What do carrier pilots do when they've had a shore posting for a while and then go back onto ops? Do they have to transition through a training programme to get their eye back in, or is it just a matter of hoping the first few landings and take offs go right till they're comfortable again?

[FlyNavy]

I can speak from first hand experience in a small outfit. The USN experience would be much different because they have/had many carriers to keep pilots trained or current and deployed with many aircraft serviceable for that task also.

For example USN trainee pilots did their first deck landings (here I'll confine my comments to the late 1960s early 1970s with an understanding that the USN training regime has changed since then) in the T-28 Trojan. They had to become qualified with a number of successful arrests and then free deck takeoffs to move on in the training syllabus. If streamed to jets then later they would deck land in the T-2 Buckeye although due to fast training in the Vietnam war era some variations on this path were evident. However one can see how the trainee pilot worked up to deck landing in their operational aircraft and let us say the Skyhawk for the sake of an example.

The trainee USN pilot would qualify for his wings after the Buckeye training to move onto the Skyhawk RAG (Replacement Air Group) where he would qualify deck landing day/night on the Skyhawk and then be assigned to a Fleet Squadron perhaps although some went to shore squadrons such as VC-1 in Hawaii.

Before all these deck landing evolutions the trainee pilot would train doing "dummy deck landings" or FCLP (Field Carrier Landing Practice). I'm not certain about night work in the early Trojan but certainly the trainee would carry out up to 100 practice deck landings under the supervision of an LSO. If they did not get to the required standard then they would not go out to the deck.

Similarly the trainee Buckeye pilot would have a similar number of FCLP landings (with some perhaps at night to help hone the skill to concentrate on the ball and lineup and airspeed [in the case of the Skyhawk the Angle of Attack indicator on the coaming]). So repeat this process for the USN Skyhawk RAG pilot, who likely would do most of his FCLP at night although initially qualify by day on the deck then later qualify at night on the deck.

Once qualified there would be a minimum monthly / yearly number of day / night deck landings required to remain qualified. If out of qualification then a shortened work up would be required to requalify.

Bear in mind every USN shore station would have a portable mirror for the pilot to use to practice carrier landings for every landing ashore. NAS Nowra had such a mirror (not seen in the RNZAF No.2 sqdn time though - not required). Every landing I did even in training jets (Vampire, Venom and Macchi) was with the use of this mirror ashore. Of course it was not the same as the real thing but it focussed one's mind on the task ahead.

It was mandatory to use the portable mirror at NAS Nowra in an A4G. Exceptions were Runway 08 which could not use a mirror glideslope due to rising terrain.

Woe betide anyone getting complacent with their shipboard carrier landings. Everyone is closely scrutinised and recorded at least on paper. Practice practice practice. Usually fun except at night afloat. ;D

[FlyNavy]

Above answer was a general one now for a more specific answer. In that A4G era there was a sudden demand for new pilots because the RAN FAA was being regenerated fast from being wound down to a helo only force that it became in 1984 (back in mid 1960s). In that rush a large number of new RAN pilots were trained in USofA so the above is relevant to their experience. Although they were streamed to helos or Trackers so they did not get any Buckeye or other jet time, only Trojan deck landings.

Meanwhile back in Oz my training was with the RAAF who have a huge number of aircraft carriers. My basic flying training started beginning of 1968 finishing at the end of that year with RAAF Wings graduation. However according to RN/RAN FAA tradition my wings were only provisional until I had done my first deck landing (not qualified - just land on deck). This did not happen until Aug 1971 due to circumstances and it was on HMS Eagle visiting our shores. Not even an arrested landing in my case, just four touch and goes; but I finally had my Navy Wings confirmed. A big deal for me (bearing in mind my Skyhawk training started beginning of 1970 finishing middle of that year). Later went on to day and then night qualify on HMAS Melbourne.

Our workup on VF-805 was not as intense as it might have been for most of the squadron because all of them except yours truly had previously qualified and had all been on a short cruise to Perth and return. I joined the squadron after that time. So I really was the lowest on that totem pole for a long time. The workup started June with official NIGHT MADDLS (mirror assisted dummy deck landings) recorded in my logbook specifically to keep track of qualification). Later in late July and then August began the real night FCLP workup finishing with a total of 109 (26 by day that don't really count, so that is 83 at night with about 6 per sortie).

By beginning of August was first touch and go deck landing HMS Eagle. Later that month as HMAS Melbourne came out of extended refit I was able to get first arrest and catapult qualified. By the first day of Sept I had 33 deck landings (not all arrests) with 20 catapults being the minimum for night deck landing (catapulting at night is quite disorienting). Managed to hit the ramp on second night deck landing so the pressure to qualify was suspended until second half of the cruise beginning 1972 when in a day/night after a leave period became night (and day) qualified again. Bear in mind in the week prior to that there were also intense night MADDLS after leave at NAS Nowra.

Late in 1971 in Hawaii VF-805 disembarked to fly from NAS Barbers Point so that we could practice FCLP and flying when HMAS Melbourne was alongside for an extended period (also our carrier did concentrated ASW work with the Helos and Trackers for a time).

Generally carrier pilots get less flying hours embarked for various reasons. HMAS Melbourne had to travel long distances at a relatively slow speed to get anywhere, flying interrupted this progress across the globe. Also blue water operations without a diversion airfield are a lot more risky when a tanker is not available as was the case early on. My cruise was the last to not have a tanker ready. When second batch of Skyhawks arrived then more aircraft and tanking equipment became available for VF-805.

In one year on VF-805 MADDLS (FCLP with LSO supervising) accumulated: Day: 51 - Night: 110
Day Deck Landings (including touch and goes): 125; Day Catapults: 86
Night Deck Landings (including touch and goes) : 13; Night Catapults: 5

[FlyNavy]

What was the point of all the above explanation? To show that 'deck landing' is a full time job, done not as a side line; with lots of practice under controlled conditions beforehand. For example the Night MADDLS ensured that the pilot only concentrated on the meatball, lineup, airspeed. To better ensure least distractions the airfield lights were dimmed to invisibility with the 'dummy deck' laid out near the portable mirror on the left side of the centreline, marked by portable limpet lights that would not be damaged by inadvertant wheel contact. Also the base lights were dimmed. It was black. However the black could never replicate the complete blackness at sea, with no visible horizon whatsoever out there most times.

Also the night MADDLS were done at low level circuit height of 3-500 feet to maximise the number of circuits before bingo fuel. The aircraft were fuelled only to max. landing weight so the A4G would takeoff straight into 6-7 MADDLs, then land - refuel & perhaps another sortie. The LSO would debrief landings between sorties as required. MADDLS started an hour after sunset to ensure blackness. They would go often to after midnight; causing a lot of noise grief to airfield inhabitants.

[flycookie]

FYI this thread is now linked to a page on a site devoted to RN Sea Vixen ops. See the 'coloured' text mentioning NZ etc on the ship's sailing diary.

www.seavixen.org/index.cfm?fa=contentGeneric.zghhkojabupshgxd&pageId=124290

Moderator Dave, I too had wondered if any Kiwi A-4 drivers had done any carquals. If so, then maybe one of them can pipe-up one day and tell us about it.

[FlyNavy]

Where would potential KIWI Skyhawk pilot be to do carquals? Next question: why?

[phil82]

Dunno about A4 drivers, but there was a Canberra Pilot at Ohakea [Dick?] who did an exchange with the US Navy and qualified for deck landings!

[corsair67]

There was an A4 driver (Gavin Howse, maybe?) who did an exchange in the US and flew A-7s - so if the exchange was with either the USN or USMC then he could be a candidate?

Of course, the USAF also operated A-7s, so I could completed wrong.....! ;D

[FlyNavy]

Fair enough but as you suggest it is likely Gavin flew USAF Corsairs. However I'm only guessing. Surely if a Kiwi did carqual in any jet aircraft that would have been news in New Zealand at that time?

And don't call me Shirley. Is that humourous enough? ;D See 9/11 fred.
_________________

phil82 said (at btm of previous page - I missed it - apologies): "Dunno about A4 drivers, but there was a Canberra Pilot at Ohakea [Dick?] who did an exchange with the US Navy and qualified for deck landings!"

Not knowing other than that stated here then it is likely any RNZAF jet pilot who did USN exchange would have deck qualified just because they good. That is what the USN do. So today the RAAF Super Hornet pilots that will train with the USN in the States will also deck qualify.

[skyhawkdon]

Ross Donaldson would have been the last RNZAF strike pilot to do an exchange with the USN I think? He flew A-4s out of Cecil Field until his duck strike and ejection in 1969 and then he was invalided home. I wonder if he carrier qual'ed prior to his accident?

Having said that, there were at least 2 USN exchange pilots on 75 Sqn in the late 60's/early 70s before it changed to a USAF exchange, so it is possible a couple of RNZAF pilots did exchanges with the USN after Ross Donaldson. I'll have to do some more research on this... I know Fred Kinvig flew F-4s on exchange over there but was it with the USN or USAF?

[shorty]

One of the first of the USN exchange pilots was Larry P eleven. (known as that as his name was Pfitzenmeyer or something like, it had 11 letters and started with P) He was there about 1970.

[Dave Homewood]

Who from No. 75 Squadron was it that exchanged with Fred Myers (USN) in 1969-70?

Myers flew in the No. 75 Squadron Vampire display team. Was that Ross Donaldson who exchanged with him?