Ministers Launch Defence Review 09 Document

[Dave Homewood]

Ministers Launch Defence Review 09 Document
Friday, 26 June 2009, 5:20 pm
Press Release: New Zealand Government


Heather Roy

26 June, 2009
Ministers Launch Defence Review 09 Document

Minister of Defence Hon Dr Wayne Mapp and Associate Minister of Defence Hon Heather Roy today officially launched the public consultation document of the National-led Government's Defence review 2009.

"This Government must make important decisions on Defence - decisions which will form our path for decades," Dr Mapp said.

"The role that the Defence Force plays in securing our environment and our people must be understood and properly defined, and the Defence Force given the right tools to do that job.

"Such decisions cannot be made without proper consultation and planning. The consultation document which we are launching today is intended to stimulate debate and consideration of New Zealand's defence and security issues.

"All New Zealanders have a stake in these issues. We need the views of every sector of society to produce an enduring plan for Defence," Dr Mapp said.

"ACT and National campaigned in 2008 on the promise of a Defence Review within a year of taking office. Today's launch is a further affirmation of the Government's intent to honour its commitments," Mrs Roy said.

"Defence Review 2009 will look out as far as 2035. The New Zealand Defence Force belongs to all New Zealanders, all New Zealanders should have a say on the direction of the NZDF into the future.

"This public consultation document will assist in gaining the public's views. It will be available at libraries and schools, and from the Ministry of Defence website (www.defence.govt.nz). I encourage all New Zealanders to read the document and provide their feedback through the included submission form so that their views can be recorded and taken into account," Mrs Roy said.


ENDS

www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0906/S00387.htm

[FlyNavy]

See also (re: Skyhawk sale):
rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Postwar&action=display&thread=8369&page=6

[tfly]

Government link to Defence Review 2009 Public Consultation Document (see link below).

www.defence.govt.nz/reports-publications/review09-public-consultation/contents.html

In my opinion subscribers to this forum have a duty to read and provide feedback via the mechanism provided. If nothing is said NOTHING will come of this!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

[madaero]

great idea i think,personally of course.

[yogi]

I put in my submission, we need jets its a fact.

[shamus]

Thought this may be of interest.

The British are feeling the pinch in relation to recent terrorist threats in Islamabad and have raised their security level from ‘Miffed’ to ‘Peeved’.

Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to ‘Irritated’ or even ‘A Bit Cross’. Brits have not been ‘A Bit Cross’ since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies all but ran out.

Terrorists have been re-categorized from ‘Tiresome’ to ‘A Bloody Nuisance’. The last time the British issued a ‘Bloody Nuisance’ warning level was during the Great Fire of 1666.

The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from ‘Run’ to ‘Hide’. The only two higher levels in France are ‘Collaborate’ and ‘Surrender’.

The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France ’s white flag factory, effectively paralysing the country's military capability.

It's not only the French who are on a heightened level of alert.

Italy has increased the alert level from ‘Shout loudly and excitedly’ to ‘Elaborate Military Posturing’. Two more levels remain: ‘Ineffective Combat Operations’ and ‘Change Sides’.

The Germans also increased their alert state from ‘Disdainful Arrogance’ to ‘Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs’. They also have two higher levels: ‘Invade a Neighbour’ and ‘Lose’.

Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual, and the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels .

The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.

Americans meanwhile are carrying out pre-emptive strikes on all of their allies, just in case.

New Zealand has also raised its security levels – from ‘baaa!’ to ‘BAAAA!’ New Zealand only has one more level of escalation, which is ‘Shit, I hope Austrulia will come end riscue us’. In the event of invasion, New Zealanders will be asked to gather together in a strategic defensive position called ‘Bondi’.

Australia, meanwhile, has raised its security level from ‘No worries’ to ‘She'll be right, mate’. Three more escalation levels remain, ‘Crikey!’, ‘I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend’ and ‘The barbie is cancelled’. There has not yet been a situation that has warranted the use of the final escalation level.

[baz62]

Oh thats gold! Jeez any Frenchies reading that will go right off! White flag factory.... bloody funny!
Baz

[yogi]

lmfao

[Barnsey]

If you missed out on making a written submission, try to get along to one of the following public meetings:

Saturday
5 September
Auckland Central
(2.00-5.00pm)

The Edge
Level 4, Auckland Convention Centre, Aotea Centre
Auckland

Sunday
6 September North Shore
(2.00-5.00pm) St Georges Community Centre,
2 The Terrace
Takapuna

Thursday,
10 September
Wellington
(6.00-9.00pm) Lion Harbour View Lounge
(Wellington Convention Centre)
111 Wakefield St

Monday
14 September
Whāngarei
(5.30-8.30pm) Royal New Zealand Returned Services Association
9 Rust Street
Whāngarei

Tuesday
15 September Tauranga
(5.30-8.30pm)
Royal New Zealand Returned Services Association
Gate Pa, 889 Cameron Rd
Tauranga

Wednesday
16 September Hastings
(5.30-8.30pm) Hastings City Art Gallery
201 Eastbourne Street
Hastings

Thursday
17 September Palmerston North
(5.30-8.30pm) Te Manawa Museum
326 Main Street
Palmerston North

Friday
18 September Wanganui
(5.30-8.30pm) Royal New Zealand Returned Services Association
170 St Hill Street
Wanganui

Friday
18 September
Dunedin
(1.30-4.00pm)
Otago Museum
419 Great King Street
Dunedin

Monday
21 September Blenheim
(5.30-8.30pm) Royal New Zealand Returned Services Association
Clubs of Marlborough, 42 Alfred Street
Blenheim

Tuesday
22 September Westport
(5.30-8.30pm) Royal New Zealand Returned Services Association
137-139 Palmerston Street
Westport

Wednesday
23 September Christchurch
(5.30-8.30pm)
The Arts Centre Christchurch
Hurst Seager Room, Worcester Boulevard
Christchurch

Monday
28 September New Plymouth
(2.30-5.30pm) Brian Bellringer Pavilion
Pukekura Park
New Plymouth

Tuesday
29 September Upper Hutt
(5.30-8.30pm) Expressions Art and Entertainment Centre
836 Fergusson Drive
Upper Hutt

Interesting to see that Hamilton wasn't even included! ....and Whanganui is not even spelt correctly - heathens!!

[skyhawkdon]

I just attended the Christchurch meeting. Only about a dozen people there, most of who presented an oral submission (including me). We were given 10 minutes each. There were a few fruit loops and greenies present! Heather Roy chaired the meeting and said there had only been 250 written submissions for the whole country which I thought was pretty pathetic - says it all about the apathy of the NZ public towards defence. There were more people in the pub next door! The best speaker was an Aussie who moved to NZ 6 years ago - he had quite a different view of the world to most NZers and an accurate assessment of NZs contribution to the ANZAC spirit.

[corsair67]

Only 250 submissions from a country with a population of 4 million!

I'm kicking myself now: I was going to lodge a submission, but at the last moment decided not to as I thought the panel probably wouldn't take much notice of what an ex-pat living in Australia thought.

Did anyone else from the forum make submissions?

[skyhawkdon]

Craig it is not too late to make a written submission. They said last night that they are still accepting late submissions so if you get one in to them within the next few days I'd say you will be OK. Your perspective on NZ's Defence needs as a Kiwi now living in Aussie woud be most welcome.

[flyinkiwi]

I must hang my head in shame and admit I clean forgot to write a submission. But as per usual this slipped in under the public awareness radar and had it enjoyed the same media coverage as the ridiculous smacking referendum (what an absolute waste of taxpayers money that was) there might have been more interest.

Don: care to share your submission with us?

[skyhawkdon]

No surprises what my views on Defence capability are but here are the main points I made (in no particular order):

1. Function - the NZDF exists first and foremost to fight (to defend our rights and interests at home and abroad). We must have a small but strong offensive and defensive combat capability. "Peacekeeping", assistance to the UN and other Gov't agencies (eg disaster relief and fisheries patrol) are secondary functions that come from having a strong combat capability. The reverse isn't true. We can't rely on the UN or anyone else to defend us (others will do what is in their interests not ours). We must take responsibility for our own defence, in partnership with our traditional western allies and friends.

2. Funding - the crux of the matter. You can have all the reviews and wishy washy ideas that you like about capability and force structure but at the end of the day it comes down to money. Freedom isn't free - there is a price to pay in dollars and lives to maintain our freedom. We are not pulling our weight in this area. Our defence spending must be increased to match Australia's. Currently we only spend approx 0.7% of GDP on defence (I have deducted the capital charge from the 1% GDP figure used in most Gov't documents as it isn't real money or available for Defence to actually spend - it just gets paid back to the Gov't). Australia has committed to increase its spending to around 3%. Even if we spent 2% it would be more than double what we spend now and would make a huge difference. Whichever way you look at our funding (% of GDP, % of Gov't spending or, per capita) we spend less than just about everyone else in the world. However we generally get very good value for money on what we do spend - good "bang for our buck".

3. No more orphan platforms - buy "off the shelf" systems and have the same kit as Australia/our other western allies. As they upgrade their kit so must we. No more "fitted for but not with" platforms. Give the NZDF all the tools and infrastructure to support and operate the equipment they need for a full combat capability.

4. The future is unknown - the threat from China must be taken seriously and planned for. Within a few years their military capability will match the USA. They are spending more on building up their military than anyone else in the world. They are doing that for a reason. We should be concerned about their expansion in the South Pacific and SE Asia and doing something about it (as Australia is). Their large and growing submarine fleet could shut down all shipping in SE Asia and the Pacific faster than you could say boo! They are already influencing (economically) our weak Pacific neighbours. Other large over-populated, over-polluted, resource lacking countries like India, Pakistan and Indonesia should also be watched closely.

5. Restore the Air Combat Force. If you want bang for your buck, maximum flexibility, speed of delivery and exposing the minimum number of personnel to the actual risks of combat, then this is the capability to have. Approach the US for a similar lease deal on second hand F-16s/F-18s (I accept we can't afford brand new). Use the Macchis to start rebuilding the capability in the mean time. But the Macchis will also need replacing/a MLU in the short-medium term. Look at joint fighter pilot training options with other Air Forces like Australia and Singapore. Piggy back onto their aircraft purchases.

6. 2 more Frigates for the Navy.

7. Replace the Hercs immediately with 8 new J models. Cancel the upgrade (it is in deep sh*t and is a good example of another orphan system which we don't need any more of).

8. Purchase an additional 757 and upgrade the same as the other 2.

9. Purchase additional NH-90s and LUHs.

10. Purchase 6 medium tactical transport/Maritime patrol/multi-engine conversion training aircraft.

11. Our geographic isolation is our best physical defence, but also makes us vulnerable. We can't continue to use our physical isolation from the rest of the world as an excuse to "discount" our spending on defence. Technology and our reliance on it (and on overseas trade) actually makes the world a very small place. Cyber threats should not be discounted. China and Russia are already very active in this area. Imagine a world with no GPS, internet, email and cell phones. We have become too reliant on these technologies which could be shut down in a flash by someone with bad intentions.

[corsair67]

Don, as expected, an excellent submission from you. Hopefully someone in Govt will have the guts to bite the bullet and actually take a stand on defence this time around.

I'm away from here for the next four days, but I will try and get something together and sent across the Tasman early next week.

Now to find the notes I made.........

[skyhawkdon]

Sept 24, 2009 12:57:44 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

Don, as expected, an excellent submission from you. Hopefully someone in Govt will have the guts to bite the bullet and actually take a stand on defence this time around.

Unlikely I'd say!

[beagle]

Sept 24, 2009 12:45:37 GMT 12 skyhawkdon said:

No surprises what my views on Defence capability are but here are the main points I made (in no particular order):

1. Function - the NZDF exists first and foremost to fight (to defend our rights and interests at home and abroad). We must have a small but strong offensive and defensive combat capability. "Peacekeeping", assistance to the UN and other Gov't agencies (eg disaster relief and fisheries patrol) are secondary functions that come from having a strong combat capability. The reverse isn't true. We can't rely on the UN or anyone else to defend us (others will do what is in their interests not ours). We must take responsibility for our own defence, in partnership with our traditional western allies and friends.

2. Funding - the crux of the matter. You can have all the reviews and wishy washy ideas that you like about capability and force structure but at the end of the day it comes down to money. Freedom isn't free - there is a price to pay in dollars and lives to maintain our freedom. We are not pulling our weight in this area. Our defence spending must be increased to match Australia's. Currently we only spend approx 0.7% of GDP on defence (I have deducted the capital charge from the 1% GDP figure used in most Gov't documents as it isn't real money or available for Defence to actually spend - it just gets paid back to the Gov't). Australia has committed to increase its spending to around 3%. Even if we spent 2% it would be more than double what we spend now and would make a huge difference. Whichever way you look at our funding (% of GDP, % of Gov't spending or, per capita) we spend less than just about everyone else in the world. However we generally get very good value for money on what we do spend - good "bang for our buck".

3. No more orphan platforms - buy "off the shelf" systems and have the same kit as Australia/our other western allies. As they upgrade their kit so must we. No more "fitted for but not with" platforms. Give the NZDF all the tools and infrastructure to support and operate the equipment they need for a full combat capability.

4. The future is unknown - the threat from China must be taken seriously and planned for. Within a few years their military capability will match the USA. They are spending more on building up their military than anyone else in the world. They are doing that for a reason. We should be concerned about their expansion in the South Pacific and SE Asia and doing something about it (as Australia is). Their large and growing submarine fleet could shut down all shipping in SE Asia and the Pacific faster than you could say boo! They are already influencing (economically) our weak Pacific neighbours. Other large populated countries like India and Pakistan should also be watched closely.

5. Restore the Air Combat Force. If you want bang for your buck, maximum flexibility, speed of delivery and exposing the minimum number of personnel to the actual risks of combat, then this is your number one capability to have. Approach the US for a similar lease deal on second hand F-16s/F-18s. Use the Macchis to start rebuilding the capability in the mean time. Macchis will also need replacing/a MLU in the short term. Look at training options with other Air Forces like Australia and Singapore. Piggy back onto their purchases.

6. 2 more Frigates for the Navy.

7. Replace the Hercs immediately with 8 new J models. Cancel the upgrade (it is in deep sh*t and is a good example of an orphan system which we don't need any more of).

8. Purchase an additional 757.

9. Purchase additional NH-90s and LUHs.

10. Purchase 6 medium tactical transport aircraft.

11. Our geographic isolation is our best physical defence, but also makes us vulnerable. We can't continue to use our physical isolation from the rest of the world as an excuse to "discount" our spending on defence. Technology and our reliance on it (and overseas trade) actually makes the world a very small place. Cyber threats should not be discounted. China and Russia are already very active in this area. Imagine a world with no GPS, internet, email and cell phones. We have become too reliant on these technologies which could be shut down in a flash by someone with bad intentions.

Bugger, I forgot all about it, as I was going to go along too.

1, yes agree with your comment here

2, well I cannot see them raising it to match the aussies but surely they have to raise it some. I am pretty sure it will cost more to run 13 new twin engine choppers than the current ones for a start.

3, of yes. Haven't we learnt the lesson here too many times.
Yes we might not need the biggest and most expensive kit but you still don't go out and buy a one off or modernise it with yesterdays kit to last the next 10 years.

4, the future will see labels on our kids "Made in China "

5, mmmmmmm yes a combat force would be very nice, but costs etc have put it out of our future reach. Bringing the Maachies back on line would be ok to get a pool of pilots back up with jet experience, but I would be more in favour of an ANZAC Sqn. They say they are looking at going for 100 JSF's plus the 24 Rhinos so they might want some extra keen guys from here to help out.

6, that will never happen. I think when the ANZAC frigates retire, then we should be looking at getting something inbetween a frigate and the new OPV's.

7,not sure on 8 J models, 6 maybe would be appropriate.

8 yes an additional B757 and kitted out the same would be great.

9, yes additional choppers. another 2 NH-90s and another 5 LUH's

10, extra B757, J models herks, won't need them

[beagle]

so what is up with the Herk upgrade, something we don't know ?

[skyhawkdon]

The first aircraft hasn't been accepted by the RNZAF (that is why it isn't back in NZ). Lots of software and sub-contractor problems going on. That is what you get when you try and design your own avionics system for only 5 aircraft! The project was recently moved (including both our Hercs and all our personnel that are over there) from Canada to Texas, as L3 has closed up shop in Canada. The Orion upgrade is the same - 3 years late and a lot of software issues still to work through.

I'm confident both will get sorted in time (with a lot of money and assistance from the RNZAF), but by the time the last Herc is handed back to the RNZAF they will be almost due for retirement. Remember the Herc upgrade was only designed to give them another 10 years of life - out to 2017. We should have bitten the bullet and just replaced the Hercs with new off the shelf J models. We had the option to add on to the end of the Aussie buy at a very good price, but let that lapse. While the J model also had a lot of problems initially they have now been sorted.

[beagle]

Sept 25, 2009 7:41:52 GMT 12 skyhawkdon said:

The first aircraft hasn't been accepted by the RNZAF (that is why it isn't back in NZ). Lots of software and sub-contractor problems going on. That is what you get when you try and design your own avionics system for only 5 aircraft! The project was recently moved (including both our Hercs and all our personnel that are over there) from Canada to Texas, as L3 has closed up shop in Canada. The Orion upgrade is the same - 3 years late and a lot of software issues still to work through.

I'm confident both will get sorted in time (with a lot of money and assistance from the RNZAF), but by the time the last Herc is handed back to the RNZAF they will be almost due for retirement. Remember the Herc upgrade was only designed to give them another 10 years of life - out to 2017. We should have bitten the bullet and just replaced the Hercs with new off the shelf J models. We had the option to add on to the end of the Aussie buy at a very good price, but let that lapse. While the J model also had a lot of problems initially they have now been sorted.

I am just wondering what the original order the RAAF went for asthey got 12 but they must have had options on more which we had the option of going in with them. I see they are getting more, another 2 for a start as they are going to get rid of their H models, just wondering if we could get onto the back of that even though we won't be getting them for another 8 or so years.