Ministers Launch Defence Review 09 Document

[caromeg]

All joking aside the US offerred us M1A1 and Bradley for free in 1998.
We just cant afford to run them.
I doubt they are being seriously considered here.
We do have a soviet Alsation anti tank dog platoon based in Petone so killing tanks is covered

[Dave Homewood]

Why was NZ offered free tanks by the USA?

And how does a dog kill a tank? Do they have explosives attached to them?

[corsair67]

And how does a dog kill a tank? Do they have explosives attached to them?

Yep. The Soviets cared bugger all about their people, so animals weren't valued much either.

[yogi]

a good first move would be to swap half of the standard lavs we currently have for a range of the U.S strykers i.e the M1129 Mortar Carrier and M1130 Commander's Vehicle.......... perhaps even the M1128 Mobile Gun System ;D

[Kenny]

Nov 28, 2009 23:20:11 GMT 12 yogi said:

perhaps even the M1128 Mobile Gun System ;D

I can already hear Keith locke

[stu]

Nov 28, 2009 22:33:42 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

And how does a dog kill a tank? Do they have explosives attached to them?

Yep. The Soviets cared bugger all about their people, so animals weren't valued much either.

Also as featured in a fascinating little book picked up at the Warehouse - "The World's Worst Weapons"....

www.soviet-empire.com/1/military/anti-tank/dog_mine/

Anti-Tank Dog Mine

The simplicity of the dog mine must have been appealing concept in 1942 when the Russian army was still hard pressed fighting to keep the German invaders in check. The basic idea was that the dog carried on it's back a wooden box or packets containing explosives strapped on with a harness. The dogs were then trained to run underneath enemy tanks and in doing so they would tip back a vertical wooden lever on their backs, which would detonate the explosives, much to the surprise of the German tank crews and the dogs.

This however, was one simple idea that did not work terribly effectively in combat. As the dogs were trained by placing food under Soviet tanks they would run to the familiar smells and sounds of any Soviet tanks in battle rather than the strange smells and sounds of the German tanks, and with hindsight, one would also expect that in battle a dog would run anywhere but towards a moving tank firing overhead, and in doing so become a menace to everyone else on the battlefield.

The German army quickly learned of the Soviet hundminen and so spread throughout the ranks information that all Russian dogs likely to be encountered were probably rabid and so should be shot on sight. As a result all dogs virtually disappeared from the Eastern Front in the ensuing few days, making the use of dog mines all the less feasible.

Dog mines did have some success, but once their dangerous drawbacks were realised they were not used after 1942. Some reports on the Soviet Army after 1945 still contained references to dog mines however, and there were also reports of dog mines as having been used by the Viet Minh (fighting in Indo-China) in the late 1940s.

www.soviet-empire.com/1/military/anti-tank/dog_mine/anti-tank_dog_mine_001_629x383.php

A soviet dog mine in training, or so it would appear. What is interesting about this picture is that although the training tank does not have a real gun, its turret appears to be that of the T-34/85. The T-34/85 was not introduced until 1944 (and this version is 1945 or later, as can be ascertained from the mushroom ventilation dome at the front of the turret roof), yet dog mines were supposed to have been withdrawn after 1942! This suggests that although the Soviets did not use dog mines after World War Two, it was not a concept that they completely abandoned.

[fletcherfu24]

And how does a dog kill a tank?

It piddles on the tracks and they go rusty.

[baz62]

Pool Guy u are a bad bad man ;D Our Dalmatians would just walk by the tank and those bloody white hairs of theirs would cover the tank making it stand out! (He types looking at the white hairs on his sleeve!!)

[corsair67]

Yep, the Soviets had some top ideas. I can see now where people like Clark got half her inspiration!

Anyway, dogs were not half as useful as penal battalions - where the accused could clear themselves (and their family!) of any crime by sacrificing themselves by attempting to wipe out a machine gun post, panzer or running into a minefield to clear a path for their comrades.

Now, back on topic!

These may be complete overkill for the NZ Army - but they do look pretty cool in action!

[caromeg]

I see your MBT and raise you one of these



I dont think an M1A1 would fair any different

[caromeg]

Another Good youtube link if you are serious about this topic. A bit dated (2005). I'm half way through. Gives some context.

[caromeg]

Surprised no comment on this? Its quite fundamental to so much that goes on inthis forum that I thought itwould have sparked some debate...

[steve]

Don.. I just read your submission. Hard to find any aspect to disagree with. The bottom line is that we need to stop bludging on defence and raise GDP defence expenditure to 2% over ten years. this would only bring us back into line of what we spent in the 70s.

[yogi]

Jan 10, 2010 21:16:07 GMT 12 @caromeg said:

Surprised no comment on this? Its quite fundamental to so much that goes on inthis forum that I thought itwould have sparked some debate...

Finally made the time to que up all the vids and watch the whole thing!
The comments made about the NZ publics indifference and the 'blame' some of them were placing on the media were so spot on. I also found it interesting how most of the interviewees (except the super lefty lady, I forget her name) agreed there will be escalated conflict and we need to take defence seriously but they didnt really seem to agree on the best way to do this.

[obiwan27]

I think if the government was serious about a defence review it would have ensured that this documentary series was aired on free to air channels, not Rialto so that the NZ public could be better informed. The NZ media are pathetically hopeless at doing the public a public service by airing such a wide ranging documentary that is of importance when considering a defence review. How can the public be informed better?

[yogi]

thats the problem isnt is. The governement isnt really serious because they know most of the public dont give a dam therefore they dont really care.

[corsair67]

Thanks for posting the link to those clips - very interesting indeed.

One thing that annoys the hell out of me is that line that many Kiwis like to tout, that there is no direct threat to New Zealand at this point in time. While they may certainly be true, I can't help but think that quite a number of Kiwis probably thought the same thing in 1939!

And as for that leftie woman who harps on that NZ more than pulls its weight in the United Nations's peacekeeping operations - who is she kidding? The UN couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and is so corrupt and cumbersome that it can't react quickly enough to certain situations. You just need to look at some of the humanitarian disasters that the UN has either helped to create, or escalated by their inaction - do the names Somalia, Bosnia and Rwanda ring any bells??

And quite frankly, structuring an armed force to be a token United Nations approved peacekeeping operation is like having an ambulance service that can only fix broken limbs and bleeding noses!

The UN is like the League of Nations: a great idea in principal - but in reality crippled by the fact that too many member nations have their own agendas.

[Dave Homewood]

Just an aside, but did you know that one of the key top men in planning and creating the United Nations was New Zealand's Prime Minister Peter Fraser?

[obiwan27]

Feb 1, 2010 13:48:56 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

One thing that annoys the hell out of me is that line that many Kiwis like to tout, that there is no direct threat to New Zealand at this point in time. While they may certainly be true, I can't help but think that quite a number of Kiwis probably thought the same thing in 1939!

Too true Corsair67. It is a major failing of the education system that we do not hammer into people the lessons to be learned from past conflicts and how they have affected our supposedly safe, secure, isolated little nation. In both World Wars as highlighted by the many posts of other learned forum members NZ has been subject to mine-laying of its shipping lanes as well as submarine and surface ship attacks upon our coastal shipping etc. As our World War II vets ranks are diminishing the onus is on the post war generations to educate and inform the somewhat ignorant and blase NZ public, starting with the politicians!! There may not be a threat now but what about the future? This is what we are supposed to have a well equipped and trained Defence Force for possible future scenarios that could threaten the nation, not peacekeeping. You only have to look at what Britain went through in the mid to late 1930's to see the naivety and folly of running down your defence force, especially Air Force.

[obiwan27]

Feb 1, 2010 13:48:56 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

The UN couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and is so corrupt and cumbersome that it can't react quickly enough to certain situations. You just need to look at some of the humanitarian disasters that the UN has either helped to create, or escalated by their inaction - do the names Somalia, Bosnia and Rwanda ring any bells??

And quite frankly, structuring an armed force to be a token United Nations approved peacekeeping operation is like having an ambulance service that can only fix broken limbs and bleeding noses!

The UN is like the League of Nations: a great idea in principal - but in reality crippled by the fact that too many member nations have their own agendas.

Right again, we can add Haiti to that list of shame for the UN. Did you see the news item where a truck full of food supplies was unloaded then reloaded and driven away in front of masses of starving people because UN staff couldn't organise the bloody thing properly?

The League of Nations sat by and did nothing after Mussolini's Army invaded Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in the 1930's, the people were the wrong colour.....

The UN similarly failed in 2003 but then its not like that's any great surprise either.