Ministers Launch Defence Review 09 Document

[kiwiscanfly]

Well looking at things as they are now i am inclined to agree with you Skyhawkdon, And the article above is similar to the thread on the RNZAF getting the C-295 or Q300, i'm still hoping for a C-295 deal.

[Dave Homewood]

Apparently John Key has been talking today about New Zealand's threat from "boat people" so hopefully this will lead into the purchase of more maritime patrol aircraft so our coasts are adequately covered from unwanted arrivals.

[nige]

Aug 21, 2010 8:08:00 GMT 12 Ykato said:

Leaked Doc Hints NZ May Get New SAR Aircraft
By NICK LEE-FRAMPTON
Published: 20 Aug 2010 11:54

WELLINGTON - New Zealand's Defence Review 09, to be released next month, may call for acquisition of less sophisticated new aircraft for a search-and-rescue (SAR) and surveillance role, according to a document leaked to the media following the Aug. 17 resignation of Associate Defence Minister Heather Roy.

* * * * * *
The 82-page leaked document focuses on her disputes with ACT leader Rodney Hyde, and offers no other details of the draft review, which was circulated among government officials in June. The public version of the review, the defense white paper, was originally scheduled for release in March but postponed until September.

I'm confused

Here's the "leaked document" and I can't see any reference to "new aircraft for a search-and-rescue (SAR) and surveillance role", let alone something that could be "less sophisticated".

media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/Heather%20Roy's%20leaked%20documents2.pdf

So not sure how defense news came to that conclusion.

Unless perhaps I need an eye test

Edit: something wrong with the NZHerald URL link above, instead cut-and-paste the above URL into a browser to view (once the PDF downloads).

[kiwiscanfly]

Why would they bother releasing leaked documents anyway the White paper will be out within the next 30-35 days!!! But as far as i understand it i think the leak about the possibility of the new MPA was because some other minister was probing into the defense review to try to undermine Roy.

[kiwiscanfly]

OH and just to add the NZDF statement of intent 2010-2013 has been released I would have thought they would have released this after the review???

[skyhawkdon]

That would be logical you would think! A case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing? In my experience this is very common in bureaucratic Gov't Departments!

[30sqnatc]

Aug 26, 2010 12:58:35 GMT 12 kiwiscanfly said:

OH and just to add the NZDF statement of intent 2010-2013 has been released I would have thought they would have released this after the review???

NZDF making the point to the government the publication of the review is well overdue ;D

[sirbean]

New Zealand is a small country with an ageing population base,we have more pressing issues to deal with such as 21st century health care for all New Zealanders,better education for our kids and a retirement scheme for us when we retire.
I was dissapointed when our Air Combat Force was "knocked on the head"...however to think we need F/A18 Hornets is unrealalistic and unfeasible or any other combat aircraft.
However to re-actativate the Macchi fleet as an an advanced trainer with the ability to provide close air support makes sense...lets face it we own them..they are still airworthy and flown on a regular basis...it makes sense to re-activate this fleet.
As for the Skyhawks they will only be scrapped...and this hurts to say this but if one views in person the huge boneyards of ex military aircraft in the USA one will soon understand.
Air Combat is changing fast in 2018 the USN will have the first unmanned aircraft a smaller version of the B-2 Stealth bomber called the X-45 this can be used in multi roles and has no pilot.
Look at the F-22 Raptor still has classified performance can turn inside itself...you should see this thing at an airshow you will be stunned by its performance.....New Zealand can and will never need an Air Combat Force again we simply do not need one or could afford one.

[obiwan27]

sirbean the things you pinpoint are the things that most New Zealanders 'want' for the future but the problem is what 'we' want and what 'we' can afford to pay for as far as Public Health, Education and retirement are two different things as far as our country goes. NZ does not earn enough money as a country to fund all the largesse of the above and borrows heavily. Most level headed members of this forum accept that we will not have an Air Combat Wing again but we as a nation need to have a Defence Force that is properly equipped and funded for the future, hence the Defence White Paper. Your own grasp of such matters seems so jumbled, confused and out of touch of the reality of NZ's defence needs that it's hard taking much of what you say seriously.

[Dave Homewood]

Welcome to the forum sirbean. You're welcome to your opinions but I don't agree with your reasoning here.

- We have an aging population = we have less people who can stand up for themselves and thus need to have better government funded protection for our citizens
- Better education for our kids - New Zealand has one of the best education systems in the world and already masses of money is poured into it. I don't think they need any more money than what they currently are allocated personally - a proper education usually comes outside of school anyway. Give them all a year in the Air Force and we'll have a far better and brighter society.
- Retirement scheme - We have plenty of schemes for retirement. But without a decent defemce force there may be slavery rather than retirement by the time you and I get to that age. the world is extremely unstable. China is gearing up big time militarily. Only yesterday it was announced that North Korea is preparing to attack South Korea with a huge force right on the border. People think Indonesia is incapable of war despite their intentions, but they only need to be backed by a rogue state like North Korea or China to really kick off.

Right now the region is unstable, and that is not counting the threat of terrorism too.

Your attitude of we don't need it and cannot keep up with technology is identical to the attitudes of New Zealanders in the late 1920's and 1930's. They thought the idea of war was behind them and we'd never have to fight again. They thought spending money on defence was wasteful and pointless, and it was better poured into education and roads and other things. As you know, things were not as rosie as the people thought. Between 1939 and 1945 we had amassed a huge air force with all the modern equipment, infrastructure and personnel needed to not only defend New Zealand from any attack but to take the fight to the world. That is just a few years after everyone thought war would never come again and we had no way of catching up with modern military technology.

People swore back then that they would never leave New Zealand as undefended again as they had really let the country down. Well modern politics is letting it down again. The threat is still there and always will be. We could equip with new squadrons and people will still get educated and still retire, in a much more secure environment I might add too.

[skyhawkdon]

Brilliantly said Dave! Ever thought of becoming a politician?

The cost of having a modest Defence Force needs to be kept in perspective in terms of the country's overall GDP and % of Government spending. Whichever way you look at it we spend a pathetic amount on Defence compared to the other areas of Government spending. To me it is a matter of choice, we either want to be a free first world country or we don't. If we do then there is a (small) price we have to pay for that freedom. Freedom is "Free" - it is paid for in blood. I suggest Sirbean does some reading on the price NZ has paid for its freedom through WWI and WWII.

For 60 odd years we could "afford" a modest air combat capability. The decision to scrap it had nothing to do with the cost of maintaining it - it was pure vindictive politics! Helen Clark had a personal vendetta and followed it through...

To say we can't afford it is one thing, but to claim we don't need it is very short sighted (I'm yet to meet anyone who can predict the future!).

[Dave Homewood]

Aug 27, 2010 12:54:32 GMT 12 skyhawkdon said:

Ever thought of becoming a politician?

Oh dear, I didn't think it was that bad...

[sirbean]

Iam sorry folks but you are so wrong with your attitudes.
The world is stable..no one will defeat terrorism you have to live with it until the difference between our beleives can be tolerated.
New Zealand is a great country but we are not and will never be one of the big boys...if that were the case we would have played a bigger part in the first Gulf War and at that time we had a capable Air combat Force.
As for health and education and retirement,these are areas that need more investment....not defence.

[skyhawkdon]

Before I waste any more of my time responding to your post Sirbean can you perhaps enlighten us whether you made a written submission to the recent Defence Review?

[Dave Homewood]

Aug 27, 2010 14:50:18 GMT 12 @sirbean said:

The world is stable..

[sirbean]

Skyhawkdon you need to stop living in the past and get over the fact Helen Clark laid you off.
Yes I did make a submission as I have a friend as an Officer in the Navy and a relation in the Army.
Both state that both their respective Forces lack personnel and have expensive equipment including ships and LAV's that are laid up and not used due to a lack of personel to operate them.
In the Army's case the SAS on current deployment use United States transport systems...so it beggs the quetion why do we need these LAV's.
It's just common sense stuff if we dont need it dont have it.
I am not against the Defence Force but we are a small maritime nation we need to put our Defence dollars to areas where they are needed now and in the future...maritime patrol,transport and helicopters....not strike aircraft...the past is the past...time to move on.

[Dave Homewood]

The SAS using foreign transport is nothing new. They are not part of the New Zealand Army as such, they are their own entity made up of elite tri-service personnel, and they almost always deploy as part of a bigger force (Usually the British SAS, of which they are affiliated, or the US Special Forces) or are in some cases employed by foreign governments directly to sort their problems. As far as I'm aware they never used to take the Army's M113's with them to war or deployment so why would you expect them to take the Army's LAV's? They have their own specialist vehicles that are much more suited to their work and they also use the vehicles of other forces, that's the way it's always been.

Expecting them to take LAV's to Afghanistan when the NZDF troops there say they're unsuitable is just silly.

[kiwiscanfly]

New Zealand has something worth defending, our way of life our families and our freedom, We would not have public health, education and retirement benefits at all if we had no way to protect it, don't think that we don't need to protect what we have, look around New Zealand and tell me that you would not protect it.......... and i don't think a single person would say that they would not. That is what our defense force is for. and Sirbean have a look at what the military offers in the way of education.........there are so many youth projects that can benefit people.......... the NZDF do far more than just to defend.

[skyhawkdon]

I'm not living in the past Mr Bean, we ignore the lessons from the past at our peril... that is why I am so passionate about this subject, but like others here I am confused by your rambling, constantly changing direction. Try sticking to a topic and arguing your case rationally and we might show you a bit more respect.

So apart from knowing some people in the Army and Navy, what else qualifies you to be an expert on this subject?

[sirbean]

I understand both your points of view.
However we are a small nation and having a modern "Fighting" Defence Force is not affordable.
Having a defence force capable of providing maritime patrol and transport is about all we should be and no more.
Jeepers people look at the United States with all their military and secret projects.
That did not stop the 2001 terror attacts and nor have they been able to stop the carnage in Afkanistan.
Skyhawkdon you may have served New Zealand and good on you I respect you for this...as I said I am not against defence spending I just like to see it spent wisely.