shane
Squadron Leader
Posts: 117
|
Post by shane on Dec 30, 2010 9:08:37 GMT 12
|
|
|
|
Post by guest on Dec 30, 2010 10:46:34 GMT 12
Looks like a copy of the YF-23
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Dec 30, 2010 12:05:07 GMT 12
There seems to be at least three 'new' Chinese fighter designs appearing 'publically' for the first at the moment, in what seems to be a very well crafted and stage managed 'leak'. I still haven't worked out how China has managed to go from barely being able to produce a forth-generation fighter, to suddenly being able to unveil an indigenous fifth-generation one!  I don't doubt that Chinese industry is developing at a very steady rate as far as quality control and technological advancement are concerned, but I have my doubts about some of what is happening recently. Sure, they have no doubt gained some technological help from Russia, but that only goes so far. Remember, China is a country run by a regime that isn't adverse to a bit of smoke and mirrors.  |
|
|
|
Post by chinapilot on Dec 30, 2010 14:01:07 GMT 12
It is amazing that nonacceptance of China's capabilities is still prevalent in the southern hemisphere.
|
|
|
|
Post by yak2 on Dec 30, 2010 14:15:18 GMT 12
It is amazing that nonacceptance of China's capabilities is still prevalent in the southern hemisphere. I agree. The Chinese have a progressive space program underway, and a very capable aerospace industry. Ignore them at your peril. |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 30, 2010 14:16:09 GMT 12
I agree, they are a hugely technically advanced country now compared with ten years or so ago. I cannot see any reason to think they are not capable of desinging modern aircraft. Even NZ could do it if they had the inclination and the money. China has both those things.
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Dec 30, 2010 14:53:22 GMT 12
It is amazing that nonacceptance of China's capabilities is still prevalent in the southern hemisphere. So, you have no doubts that they have a fully functional stealth fighter? |
|
|
|
Post by FlyingKiwi on Dec 30, 2010 16:21:48 GMT 12
If they can put a man in space and build the world's most powerful supercomputer I don't see why they couldn't build a stealth fighter. Remember, people laughed at the idea that Japan could build a modern fighter at the start of WWII, and many Americans refused to accept that the Russians could build a modern jet fighter at the start of the Korean War, and look what happened there!
|
|
|
|
Post by oldnavy on Dec 30, 2010 16:40:04 GMT 12
It's funny because on another thread I am preaching "be afraid, be very afraid." In some areas we must be very careful about what is going on in the region. Especially of we live in countries that lack any home based defence capability. For example, like Tonga, Fiji and other Pacific island nations (NZ).
I do see the potential threat and without meaning to understate a growing capability, let's do a threat reduction. What have they built to date?
Well, at Farnborough we saw an aeroplane, admittedly built as a cheap fighter for Pakistan, called the Catic JF17. It certainly wasn't very spectacular in terms of modernity. If that is where their indigenous manufacture is up to 6 months ago I am thinking we may have a little breathing space.
In explanation, the JF17 cannot be seen as competing with western technology. It is old both aerodynamically and conceptually. Should we believe they can jump straight from the gen 3 JF17 (at best) straight to a gen 5 jet stealth fighter? Not sure. It's a stretch, but I suppose it's possible.
Personally, I think the capability of the Chinese stealth technology may be overstated. We are looking at a picture of a stationary aeroplane in the distance. Something that looks good doesn't mean much anymore. Did you watch the movie "Stealth" and then see the internet spoof about how the aeroplanes were real? The Chinese practice deception as least as well as the west.
I have no doubt that Chinese technology is developing all the time, but the counter super power development across the Pacific has not stopped. Maybe the Chinese Air Force will have working models of this aircraft by 2015...why does anyone believe that their development programmes go according to schedule and those in the west don't? This particular aircraft can be seen on the ground and we don't know it has even flown yet.
Specifically, on this photo of the new technology, the front view looks large and the canards will be massive reflectors. Is it really stealth or just a new aeroplane type? Aerodynamically it looks quite smart. The 2 fins are becoming the norm for fast aeroplanes (supersonic directional stability). The wings look large and well shaped. The intakes appear to be straight out of an IBM computer. It could be a plausible design. Does anyone know where their engine technology is up to? What are the weapon systems and avionics like? I wonder...it could be something really good, or then again it could be a prop for a Chinese movie like "Stealth".
|
|
|
|
Post by Naki on Dec 30, 2010 16:59:59 GMT 12
There's also the J-10 which is a gen 4 or 4.5 (maybe?) fighter (suposedly a copied design of the cancelled IAI Lavi and designed and built with Israeli assistance) - either way the Chinese have certainly stormed ahead recently from copied Migs into more up to date equipment
|
|
|
|
Post by adzze on Dec 30, 2010 21:02:49 GMT 12
|
|
|
|
Post by oldnavy on Dec 30, 2010 21:43:33 GMT 12
Great phots adzze!
Check out the fully moving fin! And the huge ventral fins!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 30, 2010 21:47:53 GMT 12
"So, you have no doubts that they have a fully functional stealth fighter?"
It's amazing the low radar return you can get from bamboo, Craig. ;D
|
|
shane
Squadron Leader
Posts: 117
|
Post by shane on Dec 31, 2010 6:57:46 GMT 12
I guess this helps explain why the US has been so aggresive at marketing the F-35 (they tried hard to convince the Japanese to change the weopons procurement laws placed on Japan after WW2 so they could try selling them to them and they even tried changing the laws that stops themselves selling the F-22 abroad). The F-35 is very expensive and without support from other countries they may have to cut their own order in half because of the rise in development costs. Also I guess even if the chinese fighter doesn't fly the new Russian stealth fighter is pretty much garanteed to be produced in big enough numbers to warant the US needing alot of planes to keep the balance of power in their corner.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 31, 2010 10:57:29 GMT 12
The USA has just done a big deal to sell a load of Defence equipment to Taiwan too, including a big batch of F-16's.
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Dec 31, 2010 11:39:17 GMT 12
The USA has just done a big deal to sell a load of Defence equipment to Taiwan too, including a big batch of F-16's. Yes, because the big, cuddly Panda bear has never denied that it wants to 'liberate' Taiwan, and bring it back into the fold - and obviously, Taiwan wants to be able to defends itself. Plus, Taiwan apparently hasn't been very happy with the Mirage 2000s it bought some years ago, so has been looking at replacement aircraft. |
|
|
|
Post by chinapilot on Dec 31, 2010 15:50:20 GMT 12
Having seen China change in the last 25 years or so I have no doubt they have the capability to design a stealth type aircraft.
I don't know why anyone should be surprised at China's rising emergence especially in the aerospace industry.
Like India they are about to dominate what was the 'Western' world's preserve and we'd better get used to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by guest on Jan 1, 2011 23:13:04 GMT 12
|
|
|
|
Post by obiwan27 on Jan 2, 2011 9:17:08 GMT 12
I'm not sure how much credibility you'd give to an item reported by the Daily Mail 4 years ago but it does highlight China's improving military capability. Having had a wake-up call no doubt the US Navy have done what they can to redress their short comings.
According to Wikipedia "In the month of October 2006, Kitty Hawk and her escort warships were undergoing exercises near Okinawa, and a Chinese Song class submarine shadowed the group then surfaced within 5 mi (8.0 km) of the group on 26 October 2006.[8] It was considered to be quite rare for Chinese subs to operate that far from their homeports on the mainland, though with this incident that may be changing. Reports claim that the submarine had been undetected until it surfaced.[9][10][11] In 2009, Timothy J. Keating, commander of the United States Pacific Command, commented on the issue, stating that the carrier was "in a very relaxed posture. If there were some heightened state of tension, we would, believe me, we would not let them get that close."[12]
The reason I take the article with a pinch of salt is the last sentence: "In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time."
If it's the test I'm thinking of it basically entailed the Chinese firing a missile (without warhead) into an old weather satellite as it passed overhead. This destroyed the satellite but resulted in a huge cloud of debris being formed in the area. Thanks Chinese government!
In four years since though who knows what progress they have made.
|
|
|
|
Post by alanw on Jan 2, 2011 12:35:13 GMT 12
During the cold war with the USSR, the US pretty much knew where every Soviet Sub was/headed, due to an intricate under water detection system. The fact that the PRN sub was able to surface so close was more the fact that the Kitty Hawk group were not on alert or relaxed. The reason I say relaxed, is that if the Carrier Group had been on alert, then the carriers ASW helos would have been buzzing around like hornets stopping Evey so often to use their dipping sonar, 2007 still would have seen the Lockheed S3 Viking in use and they would have dropped lines of sonabouys, to interrogate the area, then you have the escorts with their detection systems, and with that any aircraft, vessel surface/sub would have an exclusion zone to penetrate (up to min 50-100 miles or more depending on situation). Diesel subs are very quite and notoriously hard to detect, but you can detect them, even if that sub had acted aggressively toward the Kitty Hawk then it's actions would have resounded in it being sent to Davy Jones locker very quickly even after it had escaped. (all vessels surface/sub leave a heat trail that be followed even hours after it has been through an area ) I also doubt that it would have done too much damage to the Aircraft carrier as the type of torpedoes needed to kill an Aircraft Carrier are more to be found on larger vessels such as the old Soviet class Akula subs etc, even so it would have taken more than the diesel subs entire torpedo compliment to sink the carrier. Certainly once a torpedo had been detected either track/ impact, the escorts would have pounced hard and fast, assuming that all were fired at the carrier (it takes time to load/ fire torpedoes) the faster escorts (frigates/destroyers) would have taken up station to soak up any further torpedoes.. The USN could easily have said "we let the sub get close" and there would have been a lot of truth in that statement, but I think they just played it cool. Media hype and 1/2 truths are probably more the like that we saw/read We need to remember that even though the Cold War with the Soviets has ended ten or more years ago, USN aircraft carriers are an expensive piece of equipment, the USN are not going to let their systems become that run down, that they couldn't pick up a sub. The Cold War with the Soviets was always dominant but I'll bet, that Washington was/still is keeping a wary eye on the Bamboo Curtain. |
|
