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Post by Tony on Aug 7, 2011 20:30:59 GMT 12
As one who did a lot of fundraising to establish and maintain the Ohakea Museum I am saddened to see our old buildings being used for this. I hope the RNZAF Marae project has paid for those buildings as they didn't "own" them to start with! I fully understand your frustration Don but at least the buildings have survived and their history will live on. As far as the marae is concerned, I guess it was just a matter of time. I am neutral on the subject but I can understand the WASP attitude. Yes this thread is a slippery slope and while "wiser heads may prevail", I believe that all members have a right to their views here, as they do in the other threads.
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Post by lesterpk on Aug 7, 2011 21:15:31 GMT 12
Whether a Marae or other project, the price of keeping someone in uniform has been set at $20K a year. It doesnt take people long to work out x cost for pet projects = x people that could have been kept on.
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Post by McFly on Aug 8, 2011 12:50:45 GMT 12
What, I shudder to ask, are the other five? The other five objectives are: DFOs(F) - Chapter 4 Personnel - Section 12 RNZAF Bicultural Policy - AL 26 - 18 May 2011
4.301 Specific objectives that are to be achieved as a result of this policy are to:
a. develop an awareness training programme regarding the Treaty of Waitangi, tikanga Mäori and New Zealand history. b. enhance the relationship between the RNZAF and Mäori both within the RNZAF and the wider community; c. promote Mäori culture and ensure that it is accessible to all RNZAF personnel; d. project a bicultural image that reflects the RNZAF acknowledgement of the Treaty of Waitangi; e. establish an RNZAF marae; and f. develop and implement a reo Mäori (Mäori language) plan.
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Post by fwx on Aug 8, 2011 13:30:51 GMT 12
Can I say I think its a very healthy thing, and can only add to the richness of Air Force culture - have just been reading about WW2 bomber crews who were very proud to carry their (!) culture to the world via aircraft names and artwork. The Navy has had a marae for some time (Te Taua Moana, www.navy.mil.nz/visit-the-base/marae/default.htm), and it serves many purposes, cultural, ceremonial and pastoral, not just for the Navy, but for the local community.
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Post by sqwark2k on Aug 8, 2011 13:44:09 GMT 12
I don't think you are going to be persecuted for your opinion Bruce, everyone is entitled to an opinion in a debate. Except if it's an Airline v Airline debate..... sorry Dave, but had to post that little gem of irony...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 8, 2011 13:52:28 GMT 12
I don't think you are going to be persecuted for your opinion Bruce, everyone is entitled to an opinion in a debate. Except if it's an Airline v Airline debate..... sorry Dave, but had to post that little gem of irony... OK sqwark, next time there's such an enflamed debate as the airline nonsense of the past that served to do nothing but make the participants and their companies look plain stupid and petty, I will forward all the complaints I get from other forum members about what a bad look it is for the forum and how childish the airline people are, and how the forum should not be dragged down to the level of pprune, etc, to you to deal with.
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Post by steve on Aug 8, 2011 15:24:44 GMT 12
Is rubbing noses now part of RNZAF culture on the Parade ground? I wouldn't mind rubbing noses with a lovely Waihine...but with some fellow.no..no..no. The same applies to the silly french and Russians kissing each other...not in my culture brief...
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Post by luke6745 on Aug 8, 2011 16:26:48 GMT 12
Absolute waste of money. People are losing their jobs and they go and spend money on a Marae?!?!?! Disgraceful.
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Post by McFly on Aug 8, 2011 16:48:39 GMT 12
A little bit more of the Bicultural Policy.
Section 12 RNZAF Bicultural Policy Ko täu rourou, ko täku rourou, ka ora ai te iwi = With your contribution and my contribution we will be better able to serve the people.
Background Statement 4.271 Mäori are recognised by the government as the tangata whenua o Aotearoa (indigenous people of New Zealand) and as such have a special status as acknowledged by te Tiriti o Waitangi (the Treaty of Waitangi). In accepting the Treaty of Waitangi and the tangata whenua status of Mäori, the right of the Crown to govern and the right of tauiwi (non-Mäori) to identify as New Zealanders is validated.
4.272 While many different cultures are now represented in New Zealand, the dominant culture in New Zealand, and the RNZAF remains heavily influenced by our British customs and traditions. Those customs and traditions are an important part of our heritage, but it is also appropriate that our Mäori customs and traditions are acknowledged. The unique bicultural partnership between the Crown and Mäori, upon which New Zealand is founded, warrants its own special recognition and protection within what many New Zealanders would now regard as an emerging multicultural society. Logically, by adopting a more bicultural perspective, a greater appreciation of diversity and a willingness to accept other cultures will evolve.
4.273 The RNZAF is committed to serving the Government of New Zealand and to reflect New Zealand society. The purpose of this document is to provide a policy that will guide the RNZAF and Mäori towards achieving a bicultural partnership that represents and respects both the RNZAF and Mäori cultural interests.
4.274 NZDF policy regarding the benefits that can be achieved through the acceptance of diversity, and the rights of other minority groups is contained in Defence Force Orders for Personnel Administration (DFO 4).
Foundation for the RNZAF Policy 4.275 The RNZAF Bicultural policy is founded on two principal policy drivers. These are operational effectiveness and organisational pride.
Operational Effectiveness 4.276 Our most important resource is our people. We have seen on operations that the Mäori component of the RNZAF provides us with a unique ability to engage with different cultures and is a vital part of what makes us an effective force. The Mäori population in New Zealand is increasing, and we need to actively compete for this human resource in the employment market if we are to survive. By making the effort to truly acknowledge and understand our bicultural heritage we will be better able to recruit and retain our personnel of the future.
Organisational Pride 4.277 Both in New Zealand and overseas our personnel take great pride in incorporating Mäori protocols into the way we do business. We project a distinctly New Zealand image that no other Air Force can match. This policy will assist in capitalising on our unique heritage and national pride to strengthen our cohesion and enhance the way that both we, and the public, view the RNZAF.
4.278 Notwithstanding the principal internal policy drivers contained in paragraphs 4.276 and 4.277, the RNZAF Bicultural policy is also linked to three external keystone policy drivers. These are, the Treaty of Waitangi, Government Policy and the NZDF commitment to the Treaty of Waitangi.
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Post by mumbles on Aug 8, 2011 17:37:45 GMT 12
As one who did a lot of fundraising to establish and maintain the Ohakea Museum I am saddened to see our old buildings being used for this. I hope the RNZAF Marae project has paid for those buildings as they didn't "own" them to start with! Or alternatively, existing assets that are (rightly or wrongly) standing idle are being used. Has anyone figured out which sector of the budget this is actually coming out of? While the timing in the current climate of cut-backs and civilianisation could be better, as a civilian taxpayer I don't have any issues with this. I'm surprised they don't have a marae already to be honest. I don't see it as an introduction or change, more an acknowledgement. As others have already pointed out, Maori culture has been a part of the RNZAF for decades (Project Kahu anyone, or the names on the Corsairs on Dave's signature among others). To be happy to use elements of a culture without acknowledgment or awareness of it's origins is cynical, and verging on disingenuous. Maraes are a part of NZ culture, why shouldn't the RNZAF reflect that? This isn't PC bullshit, it is simple pragmatism. Forcing the culture on those who don't want it is obviously a waste of time, but there is nothing wrong in this instance I think with giving the option to those who are interested.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 8, 2011 17:57:18 GMT 12
WW2 vets would turn in their graves if that ever happened in the RNZAF! Why? My father served in the RAF during WWII and spend much of his time in India. He had nothing but praise for the Indian servicemen he saw especially during the retreat through Burma so I'm sure a turban or two wouldn't phase him. He never commented on Muslim servicemen but then he didn't serve in the Muslim areas of India (now Pakistan and Bangladesh). As long as they were on our side I'm sure he would be happy.
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Post by jonesy on Aug 8, 2011 18:01:00 GMT 12
Sounds like that policy has been produced by the standard Gov't department, feel-good, policy generating machine. Pretty much cut and paste thru many types of policies I've seen. Meh...
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 8, 2011 18:32:20 GMT 12
Darn, I just managed to lose a response that took 30 minutes to type out So now the just short version. When they finish building the marae, they can save some money by knocking down the Base chapels and churches What do the mean to the majority of Kiwis - nothing. I content the marae will hold greater meaning for most today - rednecks exempted
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Post by luke6745 on Aug 8, 2011 18:45:32 GMT 12
Darn, I just managed to lose a response that took 30 minutes to type out So now the just short version. When they finish building the marae, they can save some money by knocking down the Base chapels and churches What do the mean to the majority of Kiwis - nothing. I content the marae will hold greater meaning for most today - rednecks exempted So it's redneck to go to church?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 8, 2011 19:36:10 GMT 12
This is becoming a bit silly, there's no need to get into a debate about religion please.
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Post by McFly on Aug 8, 2011 19:48:10 GMT 12
A bit more light reading from the 'Policy' manual.
The Treaty of Waitangi 4.279 The Treaty of Waitangi sets the terms for the relationship between the Crown and Mäori in New Zealand. It underpins the Government’s Mäori policy objectives by acknowledging the reciprocal obligations and duties inherent in a continuing relationship between the Crown and Mäori people, based upon their pledges to one another.Government Policy 4.280 A key goal of the Government of New Zealand is to strengthen National Identity and Uphold the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. This goal underpins the outcome of this policy.
New Zealand Defence Force Commitment 4.281 The CDF, the three Service Chiefs, and the Commander Joint Forces (COMJFNZ) have issued a joint statement confirming that they are committed to ensuring that the NZDF recognises the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Also the NZDF Competency Framework requires all level three managers (Majors +/Warrant Officers/Managers +) to demonstrate a commitment to the Treaty of Waitangi by protecting both NZDF and Mäori interests within the NZDF as part of Competency 7 − Providing Inspiring and Visionary Leadership.
4.282 While the external key policy drivers contained in paragraph 4.278 thru 4.281 impose a number of compliance obligations on the RNZAF, good leadership, operational effectiveness and organisational pride, provides a strong basis for implementing this policy over and above any directed requirement to do so.
Policy Statement 4.283 The RNZAF commits to the Treaty of Waitangi as the basis of a partnership between the RNZAF, as a representative of the Crown, and Mäori.
4.284 The RNZAF acknowledges the status of Mäori people as tangata whenua o Aotearoa, and that all later settlers have come under the umbrella of the Treaty of Waitangi.
4.285 The RNZAF recognises the importance of Mäori culture to Mäori and to all New Zealanders, including the RNZAF, and expects that the culture of the RNZAF will come to include elements of Mäori language, custom and traditions. The RNZAF will promote Mäori culture and ensure that it is accessible to all RNZAF personnel.
4.286 The RNZAF will uphold the guiding principles, as defined in paragraphs 4.289 thru 4.291, of partnership, participation, and protection.
Aim 4.287 The aim of this policy is to provide a framework to: a. strengthen the organisational identity of the RNZAF; b. enhance cohesion within the RNZAF; c. enhance the relationship between the RNZAF and Mäori, both within the RNZAF and the wider community; and d. develop an environment within the RNZAF that reflects the indigenous culture of New Zealand, and allows for other cultural expressions.
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Post by jonesy on Aug 8, 2011 20:08:16 GMT 12
Sorry-just fell asleep reading that...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 8, 2011 21:01:37 GMT 12
There is a lot of positive stuff involving Maori people and Maori culture in the history of the RNZAF. Things like the following:
- The first Maori to join the RNZAF was LAC George Henry West who joined up on the 4th of November 1936. Sadly he died as the result of injuries sustained in the crash of Vildebeest NZ110 on the 11th of May 1939.
- The Assistant Adjutant of the Wellington (Territorial) Squadron before the war, and becoming the actual Adjutant of the Wellington (General Reconnaissance) Squadron when war broke out, was John te Herekiekie Grace. He became the Adj of the New Zealand general Reconnaissance Squadron in 1940 - NZ's only defence squadron that year.
Many Maori served in NZ's fighter and bomber squadrons as pilots and aircrew. This was very enlightened in those days when compared with other Allied nations such as the USA who's military was very racist towards African-Americans, Native Americans and other minorities; or if you look to Australia where only one Aboriginal ever became a pilot in WWII. Some of NZ's Maori airmen became famous such as Bert Wipiti who flew Buffalo fighters in Singapore and Spitfires in Britain, and Porokoru Patapu "John" Pohe who was the first Maori trained as a pilot, who flew Spitfires. He was one of fifty airmen murdered following the Great Escape from Stalag Luft III.
Many RNZAF squadrons adopted Maori language mottos for their squadron badges rather than the more usual English or Latin. No. 2 Squadron = Whakatopa Kia Mate (We Swoop To Kill) No. 3 Squadron = Kimihia Ka Patu (Seek Out And Destroy) No. 25 Squdron = Tohe Tonu (Constant Endeavour) No. 30 Squadron = Kai-Takitaki No. 31 Squadron = Kia Mataara No. 40 Squadron = Ki Nga Hau E Wha (To The Four Winds) No. 41 Squadron = Korero, Ka, Oti (Speak And It Is Done) No. 42 Squadron - Tara Ki Uta, Tara Ki Tai (We Span The Land From Coast To Coast) No. 75 (NZ) Squadron = Ake Ake Kia Kaha (Forever And Ever Be Strong) No. 485 (NZ) Squadron = Ka Whawhai Tonu (we Will Fight On) No. 486 (NZ) Squadron = Hiwa Hau Maka (Beware The Wild Winds) No. 487 (NZ) Squadron = Ki Te Matunga (Through To The End) No. 488 (NZ) Squadron = Ka Ngarue Ratau (We Shake Them) No. 489 (NZ) Squadron = Whakatangata Kia Kaha (Quit Ye Like Men, Be Strong) No. 490 (NZ) Squadron = Taniwha Kei Runga (The Taniwha Is In The Air)
Many of the badges have Maori designs too, such as the badges of RNZAF Base Auckland and RNZAF Base Ohakea.
Many RNZAF-crewed aircraft have carried Maori names and designs such as the tiki.
There have been abd continue to be many Maori serving in the RNZAF to this day, and all those who I knew were great people. Back then i never thought of them as being any different, we were all RNZAF, all in the one big family, whether they were baggies, NCO's or officers. I had some good mates who were Maori on Tech Squadron at Wigram, and through my work I knew several pilots who were of Maori descent there too. One year the Red Checkers had three Maori pilot, and they called themselves the Brown Checkers. I knew and had a lot of respect too for W/O Terry Wereta, the Base Warrant officer. I have to admit I feared, respected and liked him much more than any other Warrant Officer in the service. An amazing man.
So I guess on reflection that Maori culture has always been there in the RNZAF but was never in your face, so you took it as being just part of the normal everyday structure of the service. We never had to do the haka which they seem to do these days, something I'm grateful for as I'd never have been any good at that. But I respect the haka and it's something that other nations recognise and respect as being NZ's own.
This is a complex and interesting topic you have brought up here Mr McFly. It has obvious touched a lot of nerves with some. It has made a few others come to realisations.
Something I have been trying to remember is, does Ohakea have a Base Institute? I don't recall ever going to or seeing one in my four months of being based there. I can't even recall if Whenuapai has one, I think they used to use Hobsonville's Sunderland Lounge, didn't they?
Another thing i have realised whilst writing this post is the motto of No. 5 Squadron is neither English, Latin nor Maori. I can only assume it must be Fijian??
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Post by mumbles on Aug 8, 2011 21:04:33 GMT 12
Sorry-just fell asleep reading that... With minor wording changes it is a standard statement for any government department, civil or military. Has been for some time.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 8, 2011 21:04:56 GMT 12
Another point to add to the above, there was even a Maori crew member on the No. 75 (NZ) Squadron Lancaster that featured in the film Maximum Effort.
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