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Post by snafu on Feb 19, 2018 18:13:10 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 19, 2018 18:34:21 GMT 12
Why not just tow the NH90's to Fiji behind a Herc? Take off under power, then kill the engine letting the blades freewheel like a gyrocopter. Restart the engine before landing. Job done.
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Post by saratoga on Feb 19, 2018 18:58:15 GMT 12
..Or just wait for the rotation of the earth to place them over where they want to go?.
As for the Aussies getting recycled Blackhawks,there might be something in it for us.When their horrendously expensive SAR and firefight kits fitout goes awry(Au$$ie$,no surprises there),we'll be able to pick them up for bargain-ish type prices!.
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Post by isc on Feb 19, 2018 21:08:10 GMT 12
No the US will take them back, no 3rd party sales. Well maybe. isc
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Post by snafu on Feb 19, 2018 21:52:38 GMT 12
..Or just wait for the rotation of the earth to place them over where they want to go?. As for the Aussies getting recycled Blackhawks,there might be something in it for us.When their horrendously expensive SAR and firefight kits fitout goes awry(Au$$ie$,no surprises there),we'll be able to pick them up for bargain-ish type prices!. its not a defence run program purely private funding
www.lockheedmartin.com.au/au/news/press-releases/2017/28072017.html
but youes are good at picking up factory seconds
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Post by saratoga on Feb 19, 2018 23:27:18 GMT 12
Actually,seeing as Lockheedmartin is involved, i don't think we should have anything to do with it,unless they'll run on snake oil.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Feb 19, 2018 23:30:50 GMT 12
From what I can remember during INTERFET whist doing Aircraft Security Operations (ASO) in the hardstand at Dili Airport. That fitting a Blackhawk into a C-130 is a very very tight fit and up till then squeezing a Blackhawk into C-130 hadn't been attempted by anyone including the yanks for good reason. They had strip it right down unlike the RNZAF Hueys that were flowed in by the RNZAF C-130’s. The Army and RAAF techs (yes the RAAF had to lend techs, AEROENGO's to the Army to help maintain the Army Helo's) stripped the U/S Blackhawk further after it was towed from the Dili Heliport (The old Dili Airfield), the techs had to remove hub, then rotor shaft, the rear rotor thingy, the rear wing thingy, then lower the Blackhawk too almost its on its guts and the finally skull drag it up ever so "slowly" up into the C-130 as the rear wheel had a habit of moving off centre while using the winch in the C-130. How the hell they manage to get the bloody thing off at the other end I don't know, but the whole operation took about 24hrs plus, that's including the 12hrs at Dili Airport as they to fit this dammed thing in inside the C-130, needless to say we while finally glad to see that the C-130 and its cargo of buckets of bolts and nuts the hell out of dodge. In a nutshell yes a Blackhawk can fit inside a C-130, but you have almost strip the bloody thing right down to buckets of bolts and nuts, then rebuild her at the other end. Either you buy a bigger aeroplane that can fit a Blackhawk in it or a smaller Helo aka a Huey as you don't need to strip it down to a bucket of bolts and nuts like the Blackhawk. The Aussie Army were quite amaze at how the Kiwi's could have their Hueys flying within a couple of hrs after it had been unloaded from the C-130. I don't think I have any photos of the Blackhawk being loaded onto the C130, but I do think that RAAF or the DoD did take a few photos. In late 06 after we left ET again or in 07 or it could be later as I’m not sure of the date. The RAAF flew a C-17 into Dili Airport to pick up a U/S Blackhawk and to take it back to Townsville or Oakey for repairs. From what I understand that trying to squeezing a Blackhawk into a C-130 is a last resort option as the margins are a little bit too tight. The link below shows a Blackhawk being loaded on to a C-130 H model. I think these photo's were taken post 2006 during or towards the end of Op Astute as the H model doesn't its jugs fitted, a couple of tech's a wearing the Op Astute deployment T-Shirts and the white buildings in the background are the Force Extraction Point for Op Astute. www.aero-farm.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB15&Number=233524&Searchpage=1&Main=232600&Words=+Zanin+Anton&topic=&Search=true
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Post by frankly on Feb 20, 2018 7:58:35 GMT 12
IMHO the government has all but declared what they are getting and that's like for like, look no further than C130J.
"Like for like" hasn't been precisely defined anywhere. Worst case scenario a 'like for like' capability would be 4 C-130Js. Why 4? For most of the past 13 years the fleet has been one frame short because of the upgrade programme. 'Like for like' could also be (and most likely is) a medium military transport than can conduct 'strategic' and tactical lift. Realistically there are only two games in town - the C-130 and the KC-390. The smaller twins just dont have the utility at ranges NZ operates at. SaveSave
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Post by horicle on Feb 20, 2018 10:47:51 GMT 12
Also note "Like for Like" was the product of a previous Government. And all that that implies.
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Post by noooby on Feb 21, 2018 10:09:34 GMT 12
Madmac, there is no anti-ice capability for the A109. Heated pitot tube is about it. Oh and an optional Ice Detector to tell you when you're in the crap! The AW139 is the smallest at the moment with FIPS. The AW169 FIPS is in design at the moment, in partnership with Rega in Switzerland.
It was actually the Germans who helped pay for the S-64, they purchased two fo the first three. The Americans weren't interested in it until Vietnam came along. Sikorsky developed it themselves. It is actually certified too (S-64E and S-64F), which Sikorsky paid for in the late 60's. Of course, the price per unit for the military ships is inflated to cover costs quickly, as there usually aren't many units produced. In the end the CH54/S64 didn't make a cent for Sikorsky. It cost them money and they sold the Type Cert, tooling and spares to Erickson Aircrane.
Exkiwiforces, you're right about the Blackhawk in the C-130.
When the US military launched the competition for the Huey replacement, it had to fit into a C-130 with the rotor head fitted. Bell teamed up with MBB and were pitted against Sikorsky.
The Bell/MBB team went with a rigid rotor (similar to the BK117), mounted EXTREMELY close to the cabin roof so that it would fit inside the C-130 with the rotor head still fitted. Flew like crap because of airflow interference on the cabin roof.
Sikorsky decided to not abide by the rules and made their aircraft taller, so that it flew nicely. They then asked for dispensation from the rules about fitting inside a C-130 with the main rotor head on. They won. Bell/MBB were not happy.
It is supposed to take 7 mechanics 2 hours to prep and load a Blackhawk onto a C-130 (That is what Sikorsky told the US DoD it would take). Good luck!
snafu, what is the cost of a brand spanking new Blackhawk, kitted out for military work? Can't compare retired aircraft that are basically free before they are reworked, with new gen helicopters. US military gives a lot of their stuff away for free. You should see how many police units have their own army tanks! Tanks!!!!! And the old Kiowa/Huey/Little Bird helicopters. All for nought $$$.
As far as transport aircraft go, Airbus says the A400M will take an NH-90 or even a Chinook. But what level of disassembly are we talking here? And you'd need a minimum of 4 to keep at least 2 online at all times. How about the KC-390, will it swallow an NH-90??? Because it is both narrower and lower than the A400
For a smaller transport for the Pacific, it is tough to choose between the C-27J (smaller cabin, but better speed and better range with the same payload as C-295) and the C-295 (bigger cabin for oversize objects, more people able to be carried).
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Post by snafu on Feb 21, 2018 21:05:33 GMT 12
Regenerated UH-60's aren't for military deployment, its meant as a cheaper to operate supplementary aircraft to preserve the existing NH-90 fleet to concentrate on its core role a being a battlefield helicopter for deployment of training ex.
Think of the bright yellow SeaKings of RAF SAR working with local government agencies but with the added emphasis on a quick deployable aircraft cheaper to maintain/ operate per flight for HADR whilst the NH-90 continues in its core role.
I don't think NZG will risk an unproven airframe for such as small fleet, the risks are just too great if they go pear shape. A400M is just to immature to risk to many unknowns on how the project will move forward. The Japanese C2 just doesn't have the logistical support in many of the regions the RNZAF is expected to operate, if an aircraft goes down for a major/minor fault you most likely will either have to wait for spare from either NZ or JPN, same as the KC390, whereas spare's for the C130J will most likely b e held by the host country or accessible from a nearby country
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Post by macnz on Feb 22, 2018 1:09:54 GMT 12
Came across this interesting backstory about Airbus exploring 320neo military derivatives where they mention: "Speaking at the Singapore air show, Fernando Alonso, head of military aircraft at Airbus Defence & Space, said that the new platform could undertake missions such as VIP transport, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance and maritime patrol [...] Airbus is in talks with a number of operators, including the armed forces of Asia-Pacific nations such as Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, the Philippines, alongside European stalwarts France, Germany and the Netherlands."Source: www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/singapore-airbus-explores-a320neo-military-derivati-445670/Comment: Airbus already successfully delivered A330 MRTT effectively to likes of; Singapore, Australia, UK, France, UAE, Saudi Arabia. So successful now Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Norway awaiting 8 for MMF, South Korea ordered 4 last year. Meanwhile Airbus have developed MPA configuration experience on A319s and C295s so successfully deploying to offer on A330neo platform should come with a strong confidence. So what if NZ invested in 7x A330neo platform plus option for further 3? For the initial 7 ordered; 3 be configured for primary MPA mission (2 active, 1 standby/training), while 3 for troop and cargo transport - with 1 of these also having secondary mission profile of MPA back-up/training. The 7th would act as fleet reserve replacement during scheduled maintenance. 4 or 5x C295s be ordered for interchangeable SAR support or tactical airlift around NZ to complement the A330 'core' fleet. Govt then would have (a little) more time to study the procurement decision on which platform for strategic airlift (A400M or newly developed C2s) to commit to - based on product maturity and logistical support. (My preference remains A400Ms) The 3 options on a further A330neos would be to future proof fleet growth into the first two mission sets or potentially extend RNZAF capability to also include aerial refueling or SIGINT missions! Too Much?
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Post by foxcover on Feb 22, 2018 7:13:12 GMT 12
Came across this interesting backstory about Airbus exploring 320neo military derivatives where they mention: "Speaking at the Singapore air show, Fernando Alonso, head of military aircraft at Airbus Defence & Space, said that the new platform could undertake missions such as VIP transport, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance and maritime patrol [...] Airbus is in talks with a number of operators, including the armed forces of Asia-Pacific nations such as Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, the Philippines, alongside European stalwarts France, Germany and the Netherlands."Source: www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/singapore-airbus-explores-a320neo-military-derivati-445670/Comment: Airbus already successfully delivered A330 MRTT effectively to likes of; Singapore, Australia, UK, France, UAE, Saudi Arabia. So successful now Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Norway awaiting 8 for MMF, South Korea ordered 4 last year. Meanwhile Airbus have developed MPA configuration experience on A319s and C295s so successfully deploying to offer on A330neo platform should come with a strong confidence. So what if NZ invested in 7x A330neo platform plus option for further 3? For the initial 7 ordered; 3 be configured for primary MPA mission (2 active, 1 standby/training), while 3 for troop and cargo transport - with 1 of these also having secondary mission profile of MPA back-up/training. The 7th would act as fleet reserve replacement during scheduled maintenance. 4 or 5x C295s be ordered for interchangeable SAR support or tactical airlift around NZ to complement the A330 'core' fleet. Govt then would have (a little) more time to study the procurement decision on which platform for strategic airlift (A400M or newly developed C2s) to commit to - based on product maturity and logistical support. (My preference remains A400Ms) The 3 options on a further A330neos would be to future proof fleet growth into the first two mission sets or potentially extend RNZAF capability to also include aerial refueling or SIGINT missions! Too Much? So you want 7 massive airliners for spotting fishing boats and carrying a few troops?
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Post by snafu on Feb 22, 2018 9:48:41 GMT 12
So you want 7 massive airliners for spotting fishing boats and carrying a few troops? That actully sounds about right if you want a 24/7 continuous overage for home, abroad and heavy maintenance, out of 7 aircraft you would have2/3 in various states of maintenance. Just like the NH-90 numbers are too low. You only have about 5 readily avalible at any one time what happen when 1/2 go overseas
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 22, 2018 11:22:11 GMT 12
Surely that is not THE Fernando Alonso, is it?
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Post by flyinkiwi on Feb 22, 2018 11:55:16 GMT 12
Surely that is not THE Fernando Alonso, is it? I bet he'd like to think so. If you are referring to the Formula One driver they are distinct individuals.
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Post by beagle on Mar 3, 2018 12:08:48 GMT 12
Thought this was a board regarding C130, B757 replacement, not helo. There is a statement in the RFI regards no helo replacement or additions. Had a dream feeling to go out in good S&S fashion to repaint the 2 C17's that were on the chch ramp last week into RNZAF colours then change the locks. Would have done us just perfect.
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Post by beagle on Mar 9, 2018 18:54:35 GMT 12
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Post by brassnz on Mar 9, 2018 19:01:38 GMT 12
A friend tells me a C17 landed at Whenuapai around 7.30pm tonight...
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Post by beagle on Mar 9, 2018 19:06:42 GMT 12
Don't think it had RNZAF painted on it though
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