|
|
Post by Luther Moore on Nov 6, 2011 23:27:26 GMT 12
The reason I ask is because it was mentioned earlier in the forum about the ''Official story of his death''I wanted t see what everyones idea of the death was from and compare it to the doc I just watched.
From the Doc it states he died from being shot down by a Focke Wulf 190.They also spoke to eye witneses who backs up that theory.They then searched the field and found pieces of the plane.
Sound right to you?
|
|
|
|
Post by JDK on Nov 6, 2011 23:52:23 GMT 12
That's not disputed. However it's usually stated that Pickard was shot down after the bombs were dropped, stooging to either check the effects or find the other downed Mosquito. That wasn't possible, as I said earlier, due to timings.
|
|
|
|
Post by Luther Moore on Nov 7, 2011 1:02:58 GMT 12
One thing I find odd is why if it's not true did they have a back up Squad of planes on standby to level the whole prison if the raid failed.
|
|
|
|
Post by JDK on Nov 7, 2011 14:52:14 GMT 12
Sorry, Luther, I'm not clear on what you're saying there.
And just to clarify; I don't want to appear a shrill for the book, nor to relay the content without context, hence not giving chapter and verse.
I do think the book's worth a look, and at the very least asks some hard questions and presents evidence not otherwise seen or considered. As an account of the details of the raid itself, it seems very detailed, and may well be the best account of what actually happened, but I don't claim and expertise in that myself.
|
|
|
|
Post by Luther Moore on Nov 7, 2011 16:32:01 GMT 12
Sorry i'm just trying to compare the stories between your book and other stories out there to see how the story is changing.
In the doc I watched it was saying that the Kiwis would fly in the first wave, then the Aussies in the second, later followed by a camera plane(to take photos of the prison after the bombing) after that there was a third wave of RAF waiting for Picard to make the decision wether to level the whole prison or not,the command never came for obvious reasons.Is that in the book?
|
|
|
|
Post by Andy Wright on Nov 7, 2011 16:44:48 GMT 12
My thoughts exactly. I know I'll be able to build on my knowledge once I've read the book but by the time I get to it its contents will be well known. I'd like to think I'll be reading it sometime in the New Year but the review books take precedence over what I want to read in my own collection.
Keep an eye on the Key site, Luther, as I reckon there'll be coverage of the book's contents in there. Otherwise, and I say this with complete certainty, watch this space or Flightpath magazine as James will read the book well before me!
|
|
|
|
Post by JDK on Nov 7, 2011 17:09:56 GMT 12
Hi Luther,
Um, it's very much not 'my' book - I have a review copy, but no connection beyond that. (As a writer and publisher I'm perhaps a little more careful of generalising in that way.) As I said in my previous post I want to be quite clear my views are independent and not to either hawk or gut the book for others.
The structure of the units and objectives in the raid isn't disputed; the command for the third squadron not to attack was given by someone else, I understand, that's not disputed. However the timing of Pickard's death and what he was doing at that time seems most likely (from evidence given) to be a propaganda invention - but you'll have to read the book in context. Give your local library the details, and I'm sure they'll get a copy in in due course for you.
Whatever else there may be to say about this book in contrast to all that has gone before, is that there seems to have been a very poor analysis of the French end of the story; this at the very least rectifies it.
Regards,
|
|
|
|
Post by Luther Moore on Nov 7, 2011 17:31:43 GMT 12
I meant your book as in the one you have.
Excuse me if I sound like i'm debating the story in the book,I am not,just seeing if the doc I watched had the same story as the book.I know only what the doc has shown me about the story.I would like to get every story before the story I know inprints in my mind.
I will have to get a copy of the book and compare the stories.
Makes you think what other stories out there are false.
|
|
|
|
Post by JDK on Nov 7, 2011 18:23:55 GMT 12
I meant your book as in the one you have. Certainly. I'm just being very careful not to be identified with it too much!  Excuse me if I sound like i'm debating the story in the book,I am not,just seeing if the doc I watched had the same story as the book.I know only what the doc has shown me about the story.I would like to get every story before the story I know inprints in my mind. I will have to get a copy of the book and compare the stories. No problem. I would recommend that! Generally I find TV documentaries have to simplify stories too much for my taste, and according to the Key thread, this one mostly sticks to the 'accepted narrative'. I find I just don't bother with the TV much for these things, but that's a personal choice. Makes you think what other stories out there are false. Indeed. I think the big revelations for W.W.II are probably over, such as Enigma/Ultra, but you never know... And thanks to Andy for his input, too.  Regards, |
|
|
|
Post by Luther Moore on Nov 8, 2011 4:45:31 GMT 12
Same with movies.I watched a doc on the Doolittle Raid last night and from watching Pearl Harbour they made it seem gloriousThe doc showed the true story behind it and how much of a suicide mission it really was, not to mention the amount of Chinese that died for helping them.Then again I can't believe the doc either  |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 8, 2011 10:32:23 GMT 12
Luther, DO NOT take anything that the film Pearl Harbor says to be the truth without checking the facts in a history book. That film is pretty much the biggest pile of poo that ever dropped out of the arse of Hollywood.
In fact if you watch Tora, Tora, Tora you'll get a far more real picture of what actually happened. And of how aeroplanes fly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Luther Moore on Nov 8, 2011 18:40:34 GMT 12
hahah Dont worry I might believe the docs every now and then but I never believe Movies.
|
|
|
|
Post by JDK on Nov 9, 2011 12:56:35 GMT 12
It's not a question of belief, but learning how to evaluate data, sources and bias.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 9, 2011 21:51:04 GMT 12
Well put James.
|
|
|
|
Post by mozziemad on Feb 21, 2012 17:47:29 GMT 12
(Spoiler Alert!!!).. so has anyone ( besides me) had a chance to read this book over the last 2months???.. if not i'll give a brief overview in a day or 2 so you can finish it.. i'd hate to ruin the ending..
|
|
|
|
Post by Andy Wright on Feb 22, 2012 11:58:13 GMT 12
Haven't touched mine, mate, and won't for a while due to other reviews to get through (and a new baby soon) so yes please.
|
|
|
|
Post by mozziemad on Feb 23, 2012 21:41:34 GMT 12
Right, let’s make a start.. Part 1 ; The Raid on the Amiens Prison.. ( Or Ramrod 564 ).. A brief overview is that on the 18th of Feb, 1944, 3 groups of mosquitos & 1 PRU mosquito set out from England to bomb the Amiens prison to release prisoners vital to the war effort.. No 487sqn RNZAF & No 464sqn RAAF to breech the walls & prison to release French patriots of which 120 were condemned to be shot by the Nazi’s for assisting the Allies. The third group No 21sqn RAF were there to level the prison if the first 2 groups were not successful suggesting that there were vital members of the resistance imprisoned there with knowledge of the Allied invasion plans.. Now the book.. Many of you will have heard of a movie “THE MAN THAT NEVER WAS” in which the British Military Intelligence planted false papers on a body then dropped it where the Germans would find it & fooled them in to believing that they planned to invade in a different area,, So it was with the Amiens raid,, Only on a grander scale.. Towards the end of 1943 the Allied forces needed to get the Germans looking the other way, so they slowly lead the Germans into believing that they planned to invade through Northern Norway to Sweden opening supply routes for the establishment of air bases in Southern Sweden to cover the assault on Denmark from the U.K in the summer of 1944, in time for the Russian summer operations thus drawing German forces away from the real site of the European assault.. ( Normandy ).. Once the forward bases were established a second invasion was to attempted at Pas-de-Calais with the aim of thrusting straight into Germany via a bridgehead including Brussels & Antwerp.. The problem with the planning was making it appear “Credible“ and this is where the raid played it’s part.. The bombing of Amiens prison was a key part of a giant jig-saw puzzle .. each piece carefully offered up to the Germans so as to build up a believable & credible claim that the Pas-de-Calais area was under threat from the Allied Invasion.. To bomb a civilian prison containing more than 700 people making obvious breeches in the walls could only induce the Germans into thinking the Allies wanted to release or even eliminate certain “PRISONERS”.. After all, surely no one would bomb a civilian prison without good reason  .. There are several chapters covering the documents to support these claims so it’s hard reading in places with a lot of the original RAF/Military Intelligence paperwork printed within.. Hope this helps.. Part 2 soon.. mike |
|
|
|
Post by ngatimozart on Jul 1, 2012 22:12:56 GMT 12
If you want to see the documentary "Operation Jericho" it's on Youtube:
|
|
|
|
Post by ngatimozart on Jul 1, 2012 22:15:54 GMT 12
Luther, DO NOT take anything that the film Pearl Harbor says to be the truth without checking the facts in a history book. That film is pretty much the biggest pile of poo that ever dropped out of the arse of Hollywood. In fact if you watch Tora, Tora, Tora you'll get a far more real picture of what actually happened. And of how aeroplanes fly. Yep I am very certain that the USN did not have CGNs (Nuclear powered Guided Missile Cruisers) in service in 1941. If you look at some of the shots in Pearl Harbour of 'Battleship Row' during the attack you'll see some CGNs parked there. |
|
|
|
Post by nuuumannn on Jul 1, 2012 23:22:25 GMT 12
That'll be "The man WHO never was", which was about a diversion to fool the Germans into thinking the Allies were going to invade Corsica instead of Sicily, when in fact they were going to invade the latter, which the Germans suspected they would, hence the body with a brief case attached containing papers about the invasion of Corsica. The body was delivered off the coast of southern Spain by the submarine HMS Seraph. The idea of concocting orders and planiting them on a dead body was made by British Naval Intelligence and the one who played a large part in its success was none other than Ian Fleming.
...and is homage to almost every great aviation war movie made - in both Dawn Patrol and Hell's Angels there is a menage a trois of exactly the same scenario as in PH. Battle of Britain, Thirty Seconds over Tokyo and Tora, Tora, Tora are all represented too. It is shite, but in some ways it was worth watching, if only to see them fly those B-25s from the deck of the carrier - that wasn't CGI folks, they were real B-25s flying from the deck of the USS Constellation (CV64). Slightly bigger than the Hornet, but there were vets from the Doolittle raid present aboard the carrier during filming. Kinda special.
|
|
.. 
