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Post by Andy Wright on Oct 24, 2011 21:26:59 GMT 12
Hi chaps, the 'new' book by JP Ducellier - full title The Amiens Raid, secrets revealed - arrived on my doorstep today. I say 'new' as this is the English translation of the 2002 French title Les secrets du bombardment de la prison d'Amiens. It is edited by Simon Parry who has added extra material that was not available to Ducellier when the original book was published.
A good-looking and good-sized hardback, I've only had a quick flick through so far. Great diagrams of the flightpaths of various elements - Allied and German - involved in the action and a lot of photos I haven't seen before. On my flick through, the Kiwi side of things (487 Sqn of course) didn't jump out at me but neither did the Australian aspect (464 Sqn). A better look will reveal more of course but I reckon the focus, of course, is on the whys and wherefores of the raid and the apparent cover-up and true reason for the raid. That said, lots of analysis of the bomb strikes coupled with recollections of the crews. All angles appear to be covered.
I got my copy from The Book Depository for A$30 which I thought was an exceptionally good price. When I eventually read the book in about 500 years, reckon it'll be a good'n. Anyone had the chance to get into it already?
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Post by kb on Oct 25, 2011 18:57:30 GMT 12
Andy there is a good write up of the raid in "The Gestapo Hunters, 464 Squadron RAAF, 1942-45". 487 Squadron gets good coverage also. A high level resistance leader Monsieur Raymon Vivant had been captured four days previously and it is thought that he had some knowledge of D Day. He certainly had a great deal of knowledge about the resistance movement. Enough to cause the raid to be carried out? These things aren't usually as romantic as they sound at the time!
There were 712 prisoners, 102 were killed in the raid, 74 hospitalised and 258 escaped.
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Post by Andy Wright on Oct 26, 2011 15:48:22 GMT 12
Thanks, kb, I'm not across the raid in any major detail but know the 'basics' from numerous magazine articles and the like. I've got The Gestapo Hunters on the shelf but admit to not having read it cover to cover yet. Have dipped in and out a fair bit though and am a huge fan of the Lax/Kane-Maguire writing team - the footnotes are always a great read on their own!
Am looking forward to finding good Kiwi content as I get into the book in more detail (although won't be reading it properly for a while yet as the books with review requests take precedence).
Books by 487 Sqn chaps aren't immediately springing to mind. Can you recommend any?
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Post by chinapilot on Oct 27, 2011 17:48:04 GMT 12
Just a heads up...
'Operation Jericho' is being shown again on BBC2 on 29 October at 1835 UK time. Can't get the internet feed in HK but maybe you can in NZ. Excellent documentary BTW..
[Thanks for your excellent web site with the book reviews]
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Post by Tony on Oct 28, 2011 0:14:13 GMT 12
Other publications that detail the raid: 2 Group RAF: A Complete History, 1936–1945: Boyer, Michael J F Mosquito: Sharp, C Martin & Boyer, Michael J F And of course our own history: New Zealanders with the Royal Air Force (Vol. II): Thompson Wg Cdr H L The raid detailed below: www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-2RAF-c6.html#n163
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2011 10:48:23 GMT 12
I think what you guys might be missing here is all those old books have been allegedly superceded by the new book which claims the whole story of resistance members as prisoners was a lie, there were not the prisoners in there that they told the squadrons and the world, apparently. The book is meant to be fll of new information and revelations. Also it's said that the "official" story of Picard's crash is a lie too and he actually crashed elsewhere.
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Post by JDK on Oct 28, 2011 17:15:01 GMT 12
I think what you guys might be missing here is all those old books have been allegedly superceded by the new book... Yes! ...which claims the whole story of resistance members as prisoners was a lie, there were not the prisoners in there that they told the squadrons and the world, apparently. The book is meant to be fll of new information and revelations. Also it's said that the "official" story of Picard's crash is a lie too and he actually crashed elsewhere. No! The book goes into a great deal of detail on the raid; and corrects some matters of detail, down to illustrating where each bomb fell and the effects. The issue of Pickard's death is of timing, and actions, not location, and there is compelling evidence presented of his death being re-invented for propaganda purposes. There were resistance (and 'civil') prisoners in the prison, but the book goes to great length, credibly I think, to show all the claims of it being a resistance requested raid are a British fabrication, including the the congratulation telegram. The book then goes on from there. I have a review copy, and I've skimmed through but not read it properly, and I have some questions in with the publisher, so for those reasons I don't want to go into too much more detail yet. However I would recommend the book to anyone interested; much of the evidence presented (and crucially evidence that doesn't seem to exist) is compelling of a cover story that has no relation to the real reasons for the raid. What they may have been is another thing again. Regards,
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Post by mozziemad on Oct 28, 2011 19:31:46 GMT 12
Evening, I.ve recently finnished a book on the raid "And the walls came tumbling down" by Jack Fishman.. while new secrets and data always add to any story, the story itself is the thread that i enjoyed the most.. skill.. luck.. a job to do.. & a chance to help.. from both sides of the channel..
Cheers
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Post by JDK on Oct 28, 2011 20:45:28 GMT 12
I agree. However in this case it seems clear that the 'why' of the raid is based on a lie (or cover story) that hasn't been questioned except once before; and crucially there's no primary evidence of any resistance involvement. It is, I'd suggest, a revolution in the understanding of the whole event, rather than a few peripheral changes.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2011 22:24:39 GMT 12
Thanks for the correction James, trying to work out what the book has revealed from all the different coded and valed posts on various forums and Chinese whispers form individuals has been difficult so I am happy to admit my post is wrong. I am looking forward to reading the book and getting the fuller picture, but thanks for your description as it puts it into focus. So all those prisoners were indeed in there, and many were saved, it's just they didn't specifically ask to be saved. I see.
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Post by JDK on Oct 30, 2011 0:27:51 GMT 12
One of the other odd things was the British claim was that resistance people would be outside waiting with lorries to spirit away any released prisoners;however not only does there not seem to be any evidence of that (one resistance member said something like "We'd've loved lorries, where would we get them?") but in fact, sadly, the majority of escaped prisoners were soon recaptured, as there was no help for them, except ad hoc - somewhat tarnishing the claims of the raid's success - again, no fault of the extra-ordinary effort by the Mosquito crews. And, interestingly, little evidence of sanctions (such as the execution they were supposedly already sentenced to) to those recaptured escapees.
(And Dave, Check your e- mail.)
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Post by Luther Moore on Nov 5, 2011 23:30:00 GMT 12
There is a good documentary on the History channel about the Amiens raid called Narrow Escapes of WWII.
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Post by Luther Moore on Nov 6, 2011 3:37:39 GMT 12
From the doc I just watched there is a researcher who does not believe the resistance ever asked for help.this is his words ''The Resistance never sent any information about the prison, I never found the least bit of evience or a witness to indicate that information was passd on about the prison or about the location of the Germans in the prison. Ivé checked in all the court records,French and German it is absolutly certain there was no-one who could have interested the british enough to save them there was no-one condemmed to death''
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Post by errolmartyn on Nov 6, 2011 9:56:39 GMT 12
There is a good documentary on the History channel about the Amiens raid called Narrow Escapes of WWII. I wonder how 'good' this doco really is. Some of the stuff that I've seen paraded as aviation history on the History Channel is pretty poor beer, in my opinion. Errol
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Post by Luther Moore on Nov 6, 2011 11:33:40 GMT 12
I'm nt 100% sure if the story line was good. There was still interesting clips of the events.
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Post by Andy Wright on Nov 6, 2011 12:56:56 GMT 12
From the doc I just watched there is a researcher who does not believe the resistance ever asked for help.this is his words ''The Resistance never sent any information about the prison, I never found the least bit of evience or a witness to indicate that information was passd on about the prison or about the location of the Germans in the prison. Ivé checked in all the court records,French and German it is absolutly certain there was no-one who could have interested the british enough to save them there was no-one condemmed to death'' Which, as I've indicated above and as Dave and James have said, is the main theme of the new book. Can you remember the researcher's name, Luther?
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Post by Luther Moore on Nov 6, 2011 15:00:45 GMT 12
That's why I thought I would add that part. The guys name is French and i'm not sure how to spell it so i'll have a go,Dr Ducellei?He believes it was some how part of the D-day deception plot.Also a P/O Maxwell Sparks adds the raid was controversal among the crews.
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Post by JDK on Nov 6, 2011 20:19:45 GMT 12
According to the chat on Key's Historic forum, J P Ducellier the author of the new book, gets a moment in the UK TV programme and expounds his theories there. However the general thrust of the doco is (apparently) story as before.
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Post by Luther Moore on Nov 6, 2011 21:15:57 GMT 12
I just read that thread. Maxwell is a Kiwi? I was wondering if he was.Correct me if i'm wrong but he sounds Aussie.What is the official story of Picards death?
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Post by JDK on Nov 6, 2011 23:18:24 GMT 12
Sparks is and was a New Zealander.
The 'official' version of Pickard's death is out there, in most records of the event.
Ducellier's investigation offers documents that conjure that version of events out of thin air, by officers developing a propaganda document. He also gives details of the times and locations, based on local French eyewitnesses that makes the official version impossible.
If you really want to know more, you'll need to wait for a proper review, or get the book!
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