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Post by shorty on May 17, 2014 10:20:02 GMT 12
Speaking of the P 40 and Corsair how often have you heard people say I wish they were in RNZAF markings, Answer- all the the time! NZ marks mean that these aircraft are flying memorials to those who made the supreme sacrifice for our generation. Have you ever seen a war memorial in NZ with a statue of another nations soldier? Not often I bet!
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Post by typerated on May 17, 2014 10:27:16 GMT 12
Speaking of the P 40 and Corsair how often have you heard people say I wish they were in RNZAF markings, Answer- all the the time! NZ marks mean that these aircraft are flying memorials to those who made the supreme sacrifice for our generation. Have you ever seen a war memorial in NZ with a statue of another nations soldier? Not often I bet! True but it may be in the clubs (and the aircrafts) best interests that it is not in RNZAF colours. Does it have to be a flying memorial ? You can even ask does it have to be in NZ colours to be a memorial? To be honest I'd rather the P-40 and Corsair were in RNZAF colours and I'd love to see the Cat in something a little different ( hence my Jacques Cousteau suggestion)
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 17, 2014 11:09:49 GMT 12
Well said Shorty.
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Post by corsairarm on May 17, 2014 11:19:21 GMT 12
Speaking of the P 40 and Corsair how often have you heard people say I wish they were in RNZAF markings, Answer- all the the time! NZ marks mean that these aircraft are flying memorials to those who made the supreme sacrifice for our generation. Have you ever seen a war memorial in NZ with a statue of another nations soldier? Not often I bet! True but it may be in the clubs (and the aircrafts) best interests that it is not in RNZAF colours. Does it have to be a flying memorial ? You can even ask does it have to be in NZ colours to be a memorial? To be honest I'd rather the P-40 and Corsair were in RNZAF colours and I'd love to see the Cat in something a little different ( hence my Jacques Cousteau suggestion) It is true that the colours of an aircraft is up to the owner BUT many thousands of kiwis would prefer that old warplanes that served in the RNZAF are painted in the New Zealand colour scheme, especially so if the actual aircraft is ex RNZAF. They can be painted in different period colours that it served eg Harvards as an example. I would prefer that Liz Needham P40 to be painted in a correct RAAF scheme like it originally had but the two Masterton based fighters be in RNZAF colours. Another reason that I prefer that they are NOT painted in either USAF or RAF schemes ( as an example) is that most of the surviving aircraft are based in those countrys and are painted in their colours so we already have more than enough in those colour schemes. Now the Cat has a particular problem in that they want it to be seen, as a safety issue?, but be accurate. I don't have an answer but if it is to be all over white, post war?, then how about painting the upper wing in a stand out colour like yellow. I know it is not accurate but it would stand out. Yes I would like to see it have a turret BUT I also want to go for another ride in it so I can't have my cake and eat it to. Now if I had s--t loads of money I would buy all the ex New Zealand samples of the P40, Corsair and Mustangs and bring them back here. Since I don't is not going to happen BUT has anyone (owners) thought of swapping their examples with an ex RNZAF one? That we we can build up our stocks and have a de facto strike wing in the process
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Post by harrysone on May 17, 2014 12:04:54 GMT 12
'PBY does have Canadian heritage & this wouldn't look out of place on her... but she is after all being used as a memorial to those who crewed or serviced NZ flying boats in the Pacific during WW2 & realistically we intend to keep her that way
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Post by nuuumannn on May 17, 2014 12:50:04 GMT 12
The Plain Sailing Cat in the UK was the same, she was devoid of a turret because she carried pax. She was also white and the scheme did look good against an overcast British sky, only problem was, it showed off every dirty stain. As far as the New Zealand colours is concerned, I'm sitting on the fence; I see both arguments, but I'm leaning slightly toward the New Zealand markings for the obvious reason, but also because Kiwi colours are not as strongly represented in the warbird community and they were unique and distinctly ours. Also, they look good. The Air Force Museum's P-40 looks fantastic in its new markings and is very distinctive. Cansos look great in most colour schemes; I have photos of all over orange ones and rainbow coloured ones and these schemes don't detract from the aircraft - oddly enough.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 17, 2014 15:47:56 GMT 12
Why exactly does it matter if the aircraft has the turret fitted regarding taking passengers? Surely the passengers will still sit in the same seats, and they can be banned from entering the nose if there is an issue with that.
I cannot see how the fitting of the turret is detrimental to flight with people onboard. After all the airline configuration is a deviation from the original design - not the turreted configuration.
It seems like one of those stupid arcane rulings that you hear about eminating from Europe and Pomgolia that we would normally not worry about as kiwis have far more sense.
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Post by baz62 on May 17, 2014 15:54:31 GMT 12
There will be some rule in the regs but i too don't see an issue, however i wonder if just the top half of the turret (leaving the nose structure unchanged inside)would be ok for the CAA?
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 17, 2014 16:05:47 GMT 12
Surely it's only a matter of putting through a mod, using original specs? Is it the cost of paperwork that is the issue?
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Post by nuuumannn on May 17, 2014 16:29:59 GMT 12
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Post by harrysone on May 17, 2014 17:58:18 GMT 12
It gets worse, the PBY-6A (last model of the Catalina with tall tail & redesigned tail feathers) was NEVER civil certified. Examples of these were actually CONVERTED BACK to PBY-5A standards in Canada with a tail transplant (actually inferior) so that the could then be certified in the general catergory. All PBY-6As flying 'commercially' were generally in the experimental category in the US with a few exceptions (Cousteau's flying Calypso being one) & most were deployed for waterbombing.
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Post by raymond on May 17, 2014 18:25:06 GMT 12
It gets worse, the PBY-6A (last model of the Catalina with tall tail & redesigned tail feathers) was NEVER civil certified. Examples of these were actually CONVERTED BACK to PBY-5A standards in Canada with a tail transplant (actually inferior) so that the could then be certified in the general catergory. All PBY-6As flying 'commercially' were generally in the experimental category in the US with a few exceptions (Cousteau's flying Calypso being one) & most were deployed for waterbombing. Shhhh dont tell CAA otherwise.....
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 17, 2014 18:40:08 GMT 12
So we have that Plane Sailing Catalina that has removed it's turret to comply with rules to take passengers, and then we find that it never complied because it had the later, tall tail.
Hmm. It all sounds like a bureaucratic nonsense regarding the turret not being allowed.
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Post by harrysone on May 17, 2014 18:47:35 GMT 12
Err to complicate things, Plane Sailing's cat was actually a Davis Super Catalina conversion of a Model 28A-CF (PBY-5A, not a PBY-6A) The square tail is part of THAT conversion. The Super Catalina was actually fully certified, it flew with a number of airlines including : Alaska Ellis Airways (later Alaskan Airways) and Antilles Airboats etc. The conversions also sported Wright R-2600 engines with 1700hp a side in place of the Pratts which made them veritable hot rods when it came to roles such as water bombing (the Cat in the movie Always was a Super Catalina too)increasing all up weight from 28,000lbs to 40,000lbs.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 17, 2014 18:49:20 GMT 12
Oh, ok. I reckon the tall tails are fugly.
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Post by harrysone on May 17, 2014 18:54:09 GMT 12
The engines look over sized too on the super cat... mind you that huge square tail effectively solved one of the catalina's biggest design faults & that was a certain lack of directional stability particularly evident with the bigger engines. The tail on the PBY-6a effectively did the same & still looks reasonably graceful.
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Post by TS on May 17, 2014 22:36:11 GMT 12
There will be some rule in the regs but i too don't see an issue, however i wonder if just the top half of the turret (leaving the nose structure unchanged inside)would be ok for the CAA? Exactly Baz ( your onto it)that's what I've been saying all along.... God knows if you can have Dummy bombs on wings and a P40 firing blakes whats wrong with a DUMMY turret??....
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Post by harrysone on May 18, 2014 0:15:03 GMT 12
Our training captain, Bob Dyck from Canada (who has flown some 3000hrs on Cats as a waterbomber pilot), has told me that the line of the turret gives the pilot a better horizon too when it comes to nailing the correct attitude for water landings
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Post by baz62 on May 18, 2014 9:09:09 GMT 12
Talking of tall tails I recall the Mustang in the Air Force Museum which came via the Indonesian Air Force (trade for a T11 Vampire)had the tall tail as i think it was a Caviler built one. Not so good for looks but bit more stability. That's a good point about the turret harrysone as with that sloping nose there is nothing for a reference point.
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Post by Mustang51 on May 21, 2014 15:37:57 GMT 12
Dave, ref the turret Vs Clipper nose, have you read Chapter 7, Section 5(a)(i), Paragraph 2 (c) Amended, Sentence 3, Word 2? It says "NO". There is a lot of conjecture as to why but it is probably buried in the mists of time and in one individual's thought bubble like not likeing the Nuthatch. It is known that a number of the amphib a/c have had nose wheel door problems where they do not shut and on landing the nose gear well fills with water sometimes with a resultant total overturn of the machine. I am guessing that the turret thing probably runs along the same line but especially bad where paying pax concerned. You will probably never get to the bottom of that one historically but it seems to be a thing around the world. I for one like the HARS 6A painted to represent a PB2B-2R. The cost of the work to install new blisters and the new nose turret can be hellacious........
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