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Post by corsair67 on Dec 21, 2006 17:59:36 GMT 12
Phil, that's probably the reason why the RNZAF didn't have the ECM capability back then. The old Top Secret excuse is being bandied about with the F-35s now too: things haven't changed much in the past 40 years.  |
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Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 22, 2006 9:55:40 GMT 12
Don, do you know if although the ECM gear wasn't fitted at the time of purchase, whether there was an intention to possible add it on at a later stage? Or was it simply a case of being too expensive for the RNZAF to afford that it was never going to be added? At the time we received our aircraft the US was still heavily involved in Veitnam. I believe there were many shortages of spares for the A-4 at the time. Given that we weren't getting SAM's shot at us I guess we weren't high on the priority list for such essential equipment. I don't think it had anything to do with it being Top Secret kit. A lot of the Avionics kit on the A-4 and P-3 when new was Top Secret and there were no restrictions on us having the technology (we were well respected and trusted allies in those days!). The original A-4K flight and maintenance manuals had all the info in them, including instructions for the ECM/ESM kit and the full weapons fit, including the use of the "special weapon" (bucket of instant sunshine!). From talking to Ross Ewing who did the original pilot training in the US they fully expected the ECM/ESM kit to be fitted when the aircraft were delivered but were dissapointed that it was missing. |
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 22, 2006 10:36:15 GMT 12
Don,
That's fair comment. I'm not privy to the maintainers manuals or information. At Nowra we had no supply of 150 gal drop tanks (except one set) and otherwise the 300 gal tanks and tyres were in short supply for the first few years. Spares at beginning were problematic due to the Vietnam war and early 'teething troubles' with supply chain. We had few Zuni rockets also; due to them all going to one squadron in Vietnam (VAL-4 - the USN Bronco squadron). Of course once the Vietnam war finished there were spares aplenty. You would have heard Laurie Hillier talk about raiding a warehouse at Cubi Point (Philippines) to get as many drop tanks as could be carted away. By that time the operational use of the Skyhawk in the USN was on the wane with the Corsair II taking on the ground attack role.
We always had a USN exchange pilot - they were always NOT able to talk about any equipment we did not have (such as ECM). They would not talk about any weapons under development or in experimental use in Vietnam (such as early laser designation). I think the RNZAF experienced that ‘talk is cheap’ - you did not in fact get the ECM gear; even though it was supposed to be there. It would have been handy in your training environment at the time.
I can understand why the US is reluctant to give all their best gear to any other countries; including long standing allies.
Phil.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 22, 2006 16:26:55 GMT 12
In fact, NZ is no longer an ally of the US, according to the US. We are, officially, a 'friendly nation'. That is all down to our nuclear legislation of twenty years ago, and the subsequent ANZUS lapse. While I didn't agree with the nuclear stuff,[ the legislation is a nonsense], it was nevertheless a democratic decision made by a duly elected parliament and while it was crap, it was our crap, and therefore none of the US business. The cost to NZ was enormous, and you wouldn't believe how the US turned on a country which had fought alongside it every war last century, including Vietnam. Spares for everything American went through the roof as we had previously obtained them from either the USAF or USN, but those doors were slammed shut. The US behaviour was quite immature really. Just watch the reaction if an when Aus finally decide to get out of Iraq!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 22, 2006 17:52:02 GMT 12
One of Australia's states, was it NSW or Queensland, declared itself nuclear free a few weeks ago to keep that madman Howard's nuclear power stations out of its state. I guess no US ships will visit their ports again, and their economy will be wrecked by the US. Or, will they apply such pressure right now when Aussie is about the only long term ally left in Bush's war of terror? (The UK will withdraw as soon as Blair is gone, I'm certain of it).
NZ was certainly a "respected and trusted" ally of the USA in the 1970's as Don says, and vice versa. However I certainly don't think many NZ'ers have much respect for or trust of the US Government and military these days. I certainly don't.
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Post by steve on Dec 23, 2006 0:40:53 GMT 12
Sure, George W in not the greatest US president especially in communiations and Iraq is a mess however lets not forget 9/11 and the hatred that does exist against many western countries. I find it hard to accept that the goverments of Australia United Kingdom and United States of America have got it all wrong while the feminist new age goverment of Aotearoa (bannana republic in waiting) has all the answers for world conflict...
The US and partners should maybe just pull out of the middle east and leave the nutters to wipe each other out. However they firmly believe that a more lethal attack will occur unless they deal to the islam extremes at the source.
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Post by steve on Dec 23, 2006 0:50:06 GMT 12
Maybe Queensland or Tasmania,,,NSW has had a nuclear power plant for many years along with much of the rest of the world...
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Post by phil on Dec 23, 2006 7:16:40 GMT 12
We should build one here, stop pouring coal fumes into the air and no more flooding river valleys.
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Post by Calum on Dec 23, 2006 11:05:01 GMT 12
Maybe Queensland or Tasmania,,,NSW has had a nuclear power plant for many years along with much of the rest of the world... It was NSW I believe. The nuclear reactor at Lucas heights (which is now in a suburb of Sydney) is a research reactor and doesn't generate electricity for the national grid (not sure if it generates much electricity at all. it is getting replaced by a (dodgy) Argentinean one in the next few years. If Howard gets his way and we do go Nuclear I'm sad to say I think we will end up with one here in Jervis bay. The site for Australia's first Nuclear reactor, that was going to be built in the 1960's is here in the the Jervis bay national park, although it currently a car park for the boat ramp. Being the only bit of coastline the feds control (excluding the NT) it would be a likely target if Howard wants to stick one in. Considering it is to me my retirement location, I wouldn't be happy. ;D I'm not against nuclear power per say , but NIMBY  |
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Post by steve on Dec 23, 2006 11:40:15 GMT 12
Yes yes ..Lucas Heights is Aussies research reactor...whatever that means in practice...not sure.I agree nuclear power per say is required world wide howver in NZs case i would only like to see it as a case of last resort before the lights are turned off. New coal tecchnologies need to be explored however it is interesting to note that some greenies are promoting the nuclear option as clean and green..
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 23, 2006 11:41:50 GMT 12
Calum,
In that same era (late 1960s) of a potential nuclear power plant at Jervis Bay there was going to be a huge steel mill on the northern shore. At the time there was a land price boom that went bust a few years later when none of the plans eventuated. Today most of the Jervis Bay area is National or Marine Park isn't it? That would rule out any nuclear power plant on that old site on the southern shore of JB?
Phil.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 23, 2006 11:56:34 GMT 12
Sure, George W in not the greatest US president especially in communiations and Iraq is a mess however lets not forget 9/11 and the hatred that does exist against many western countries. Most of which those western countries, especially the USA, have brought the hatred squarely on itself! Messing in other country's affairs for decades, or trying to dominate them whilst taking advantage of the lesser country's resources often breeds contempt and results in a backlash. I have little sympathy. 9/11 was a shock to the world but little compared to the needless deaths the US had caused all around the world for decades. Look how many people the US and UK bombed and starved to death in Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War. Having met people who escaped from that i can understand why some would be miffed enough to take action. Really? You think Bush, Blir and howard are totally right and just, and NZ's stance to stay out of the war is wrong?? How many bombs have gone off in NZ lately? How many of our troops are getting slaughtered daily due to our interfering in other country's affairs? Not a lot. I think, despite what our Governemnt may be like in many of its affairs, they got it very right not to dirty their hands in the Bush war of terror. Just because decades ago those three nations were our close political friends doesn't mean we'd be better off with them as buddies now. They have little concern for the world's citizens, and put their business interests and power struggles first. I think we're better off in isolation as those that hate them realise we're not standing beside them in their war. I think it's more their firm belief they won't have such easy access to the Middle East's oil reserves if they stopped standing over the area. Pure and simple. They do not give a hoot about the people there and if they were to stop their presence there'd be little or no reason for the resistance fighters there to want to target the US and its mates. It was Queensland's Premier that declared his state to be nuclear free. www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20828417-3102,00.html Nuclear power may be a solution for the future as the world becomes more and more overpopulated and countries become more developed, but in the meantime there are a lot of clean and safer alternatives that can harness power from nature - wind power, solar power, water and tide generators. None of them pollute (except maybe as eye-sores) and none are likely to do a Chernobyl. Britain announced this week it's building a wind farm out at sea from the Thames Estuary that will generate power for a million homes. Brilliant idea. If the Pacific region ever has the need to install nuclear power they should put a network of plants that generate it in places already ruined by the nuclear people like Christmas island, Moureroa and other test sites, and send it via cable. So if there is an accident, it's already in a contaminated and ruined place. Woomera is another site of course. Anyhoo, back to Skyhawk lumps. If the humps on the back were empty, why did ours' have them? Surely it wasn't better for aerodynamics, was it? |
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Post by dav3469 on Dec 23, 2006 13:16:36 GMT 12
Sure, George W in not the greatest US president especially in communiations and Iraq is a mess however lets not forget 9/11 and the hatred that does exist against many western countries. Most of which those western countries, especially the USA, have brought the hatred squarely on itself! Messing in other country's affairs for decades, or trying to dominate them whilst taking advantage of the lesser country's resources often breeds contempt and results in a backlash. I have little sympathy. 9/11 was a shock to the world but little compared to the needless deaths the US had caused all around the world for decades. Look how many people the US and UK bombed and starved to death in Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War. Having met people who escaped from that i can understand why some would be miffed enough to take action. Really? You think Bush, Blir and howard are totally right and just, and NZ's stance to stay out of the war is wrong?? How many bombs have gone off in NZ lately? How many of our troops are getting slaughtered daily due to our interfering in other country's affairs? Not a lot. I think, despite what our Governemnt may be like in many of its affairs, they got it very right not to dirty their hands in the Bush war of terror. Just because decades ago those three nations were our close political friends doesn't mean we'd be better off with them as buddies now. They have little concern for the world's citizens, and put their business interests and power struggles first. I think we're better off in isolation as those that hate them realise we're not standing beside them in their war. I think it's more their firm belief they won't have such easy access to the Middle East's oil reserves if they stopped standing over the area. Pure and simple. They do not give a hoot about the people there and if they were to stop their presence there'd be little or no reason for the resistance fighters there to want to target the US and its mates. It was Queensland's Premier that declared his state to be nuclear free. www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20828417-3102,00.html Nuclear power may be a solution for the future as the world becomes more and more overpopulated and countries become more developed, but in the meantime there are a lot of clean and safer alternatives that can harness power from nature - wind power, solar power, water and tide generators. None of them pollute (except maybe as eye-sores) and none are likely to do a Chernobyl. Britain announced this week it's building a wind farm out at sea from the Thames Estuary that will generate power for a million homes. Brilliant idea. If the Pacific region ever has the need to install nuclear power they should put a network of plants that generate it in places already ruined by the nuclear people like Christmas island, Moureroa and other test sites, and send it via cable. So if there is an accident, it's already in a contaminated and ruined place. Woomera is another site of course. Anyhoo, back to Skyhawk lumps. If the humps on the back were empty, why did ours' have them? Surely it wasn't better for aerodynamics, was it? Wow! I get the feeling that visiting New Zealand may not be a good idea. Is there general hatred of American's on the streets there? I mean I know that our politicians may not be liked, admired or whatever (same goes in the U.S.) but that can change every four years, with a max of 8 years (for the president) Have these feelings carried over towards visiting "yanks"? Not trying to stir the pot, just really want to know. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 23, 2006 13:38:45 GMT 12
Certainly not. Americans are just like anyone else. It's the politicians and their policies that are generally disliked here Dave.
Do not be afraid to visit NZ just because of a few politically charged remarks. Loads of Americans visit here and are treated as well as anyone else.
I have a lot of US mates - most actually think the same way politically as I do about the war that Bush has waged.
My comments were not meant to be generalisations about the US population - sorry if it reads that way. Just the Government.
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Post by dav3469 on Dec 23, 2006 13:52:09 GMT 12
Thats cool, no problem. Just thought I had missed something. I think most of us (no matter what country) are getting fed up in this day and age with our politicians. Everything is so radical. Either radical left, or radical right. I don't know about New Zealand, but I would venture that it is similar to here. The average person is middle of the road. We don't want to be messed with, are willing to put up a fuss if we need to, but don't want to go looking for it. As far as some of the earlier comments in the thread regarding the terms "allies" or "friendly nation", I think it is safe to say those are just political terms used by political types. Your average American would be shocked if someone here implied that New Zealand was not one of our allies or friends. Differences of opinion and outlook are to be expected, but that doesn't negate our common goals, beliefs, ect.  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 23, 2006 14:23:16 GMT 12
Cheers Dave. I agree.
Politically in military terms the US has distinced itself from NZ for many years, yet in every other way we're still close friends. NZ is friends with almost everyone, except Aussie when there's a Bledisloe Cup match on (that's rugby, you may not have heard of it).
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Post by dav3469 on Dec 23, 2006 14:27:12 GMT 12
Cheers Dave. I agree. Politically in military terms the US has distinced itself from NZ for many years, yet in every other way we're still close friends. NZ is friends with almost everyone, except Aussie when there's a Bledisloe Cup match on (that's rugby, you may not have heard of it). I'm not aware of that match, but have been learning a bit about Rugby. My wife and step-son's are Aussie's, so I have taken an interest in it. Hard to get the matches on over here. They are either time delay, or on at odd hours. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 23, 2006 15:16:54 GMT 12
The Bledisloe Cup is the biggest tournament in New Zealand Rugby and Australian Rugby circles, in terms of each team wanting to win it. It's a three match tournament, and these days is played in conjuntion with the Tr-nations tournament (so NZ vs Aust Tri-nations matches are also competing for the cup).
It's the equivalent of the Aust vs UK Ashes series in Cricket i guess, only not deadly boring like the Ashes.
It's difficult to see live games here too unless you subscribe to Sky Sport (which I don't). I usually go down the pub to watch live rugby these days, ratehr than wait for the delayed coverage on free-to-air TV.
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 23, 2006 15:29:03 GMT 12
Dav3469 (great avatar of a flying pig),
As an Aussie looking at the Kiwis I can understand the issues about having their A4 Kahu strike wing being disbanded. Similarly in the mid 1980s the Australian government of the day got rid of the fixed wing component of the RAN Fleet Air Arm (their Skyhawks were sold to the RNZAF). The New Zealand depth of feeling about what has happened to their RNZAF is still quite strong as we can see. Not sure of the solutions for them but I see what has happened from my perspective as explained. Scratch a former fixed wing from the RAN and doubtless their feelings would still be high under the surface.
Both Kiwis and Aussies would be used to expressing themselves forthrightly. Take whatever you see on this forum in that light. Otherwise you - as an American - will be warmly received in both countries. We will tell you all this anyway. :-)
As for the empty A4K hump. I believe it weighed 200lbs empty and would have been a fuel and aerodynamic 'drag'. For RAN pilots any extra weight was bad as it meant having less fuel to land with during deck landings. That hump (if we had it) would have meant 200lbs less fuel to land with. That is the equivalent of one carrier circuit (or land circuit) in case of a missed landing (bolter).
Phil.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 23, 2006 15:52:16 GMT 12
Thats cool, no problem. Just thought I had missed something. I think most of us (no matter what country) are getting fed up in this day and age with our politicians. Everything is so radical. Either radical left, or radical right. I don't know about New Zealand, but I would venture that it is similar to here. The average person is middle of the road. We don't want to be messed with, are willing to put up a fuss if we need to, but don't want to go looking for it. As far as some of the earlier comments in the thread regarding the terms "allies" or "friendly nation", I think it is safe to say those are just political terms used by political types. Your average American would be shocked if someone here implied that New Zealand was not one of our allies or friends. Differences of opinion and outlook are to be expected, but that doesn't negate our common goals, beliefs, ect. Quite right Dav. It isn't your average American that's the problem, but the 'West Wing' types down at Foggy Bottom that cause the problems. I've spent a bit of time here and there in the US, and long ago reached the conclusion that Mr and Mrs Average in the US is no different to Aus or NZ, they just speak funny! The problems we have are all made by politicians on both sides. True , the reaction from the US administration was over the top bullying by the most powerful country in the world to one of a mere four million. The best description I ever heard was the then Prime Minister of New Zealand in a debate at the OXford Union in the UK I'll add a link so you can read it in full. www.publicaddress.net/default,1578.sm#post It's not that long, but it was oratory at its brilliant best. I've had many friends in the US over the years,always welcome here by the way, and there are quite a few now emigrating to NZ believe it or not, but at the end of the day, California is bigger than NZ in every comparitive term! I repeat however, don't be put off by what you read here. We're every bit as proud as our achievements on the world scene as any US citizen would be, and there's always a spare room in my house for you! |
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