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Post by scrooge on Feb 11, 2014 2:33:46 GMT 12
Was that in its RNZAF service Andrew or its later civilian life? I was referring to civilian life, no idea about how far 1821 went in service life.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Feb 13, 2014 13:13:35 GMT 12
The question was asked on how far could a Devon fly. Well not in just one hop, but most of the Devons were air ferried ex factory in the UK to NZ. The first one delivered this was NZ1803 (Nav) Devon which is one of the reasons I selected it for retention by the RNZAF Museum when asked to identify an aircraft for the museum to take
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2014 13:15:41 GMT 12
Paul, have you an answer to my query above about the A and B paint schemes you mentioned in your Wigram book please?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2014 13:16:50 GMT 12
NZ1803 is also the Devon that crashed into the Southern Alps in the great fictional book The Long Way Home by Errol Brathwaite, too.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Feb 13, 2014 13:38:05 GMT 12
Hi Dave,
will have to look out my research material on those two variations, but from memory it was the positioning of the fluro orange, either as bands around fuselage and wings, as for the yellow training bands or as they ended up with the extremities of the fuselage and wings all in fluro
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2014 13:44:59 GMT 12
Thanks Paul.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Feb 13, 2014 13:56:47 GMT 12
Greetings all,
I have found the difference between the "A" and "B" fluorescent paint schemes for training aircraft circa 1960 onwards.
Ref is Air Staff Minute 27/2/35 dated 5 May 1960.
Scheme "A" replaces existing yellow bands on Vampire T11, Devon and Harvard aircraft. (repaint with fluro in same positions) SIC Scheme "B" Devon. 1. Replace yellow band on fuselage 2 Paint detachable wing tips 3. Paint propeller spinners 4. Paint 25% of length of the propeller blades from the tips, front and rear.
Harvard 1. Replace yellow band on fuselage 2. Paint detachable wing tips 3. Paint 25% of the length of the front of the propeller blades from the tip and 4" of the rear
Vampire T11 1. Replace yellow bands on booms 2. Paint wing-tip facings 3. Paint underside of nose, rearward to a point corresponding to the continuation of the rear hinge line on the nose access fairing.
From the trials Wigram recommended for Devons and Harvards
Because it involved a few large areas of paint they preferred Scheme "A" with the following modifications: a. move the wing bands outwards to included the wingtips in order to increase the paint area in the plan form b. delete the fuselage band and paint the fin and rudder instead to increase the paint area vertically.
Ohakea Vampire T11 recommendations:
a First Trial. Because it involved a larger area of paint Scheme "B" was preferred they considered it could be further improved by paint the wing trailing edge to improve paint area in plan form. b. Second Trial. To paint the complete tail area (elevators and rudder) aft of the forward point of the tail fin fairing to give adequate colour in vertical and plan form and where it con be initially applied in the minimum of man hours.
The minute endorsed the two stations recommendations for their respective aircraft, with the addition of just replacing the yellow training bands with fluro orange for the Auster.
That explains the sequence and subsequent appearance of the fluro
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2014 14:58:26 GMT 12
Thanks for that Paul, and this is how the scheme that is now on NZ1050 at Wigram's gate came about then, I guess. But was the flouro paint on the propeller blades actually adopted? I have never seen this before.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Feb 13, 2014 15:19:47 GMT 12
Hi Dave,
as far as I know the propeller colours were not painted, have not seen any photos that confirm or deny that bit. Interesting on the NZ1050 colour scheme. The selection and painting of this Harvard was to represent 50 years of flying at Wigram 1923 -1973, hence the choice of this airframe NZ1050 and the wartime yellow colour scheme was to acknowledge the wartime training efforts. I am also under the impression from my memory banks that some ex-RNZAF personnel from an association assisted with the cost of erection and painting which was also a determinant in the choice of colours
Paul
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2014 15:33:38 GMT 12
You are correct. When we repainted it in 1993 it was decided in some higher echelons of the service that the scheme would be changed to the orange and grey scheme that was then worn by the CT/4B's, to reflect the latter service of the Harvards as well. It was a few months after it was repainted and back on the pole, when Tech Squadron personnel were packing up to leave Wigram (having been given our marching orders), that the order regarding the colour scheme was found in the back of a filing cabinet by our Flight Commander. There was nothing that could be done by then and that was the first anyone at Tech Squadron had heard of this caveat. So the order was carefully filed in the bin. I witnessed this myself.
I think the current restoration and scheme is pretty stunning, and it's unique on all existing Harvards in NZ to. But maybe in the future we may see it return to the wartime yellow scheme during another refurbishment. I doubt too many wartime members would quibble, after all in 1973 they would never have envisaged so many Harvards preserved in flying condition as there are now, reflecting all manor of schemes and eras.
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Post by baz62 on Feb 13, 2014 19:13:20 GMT 12
But was the flouro paint on the propeller blades actually adopted? I have never seen this before. No i have never seen it Dave so i doubt it was ever done or at least maybe a trial done and someone went ewwwwwwww!
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Post by pjw4118 on Feb 14, 2014 14:03:57 GMT 12
This photo is from Chub Roberts showing a special mod that allowed pilots to be trained at the same time as navigators, saving taxpayers money. There was a down side as each had a different exercise to complete and fighting broke out.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 14, 2014 14:12:52 GMT 12
An oldie, but a goodie. I preferred the t-tail four engined Friendship that the photo Section did.
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Post by Damon on Feb 14, 2014 14:31:38 GMT 12
And then there's the Harvard with the turbo prop engine (off a Andover?) picture as well. Not sure of the rational behind that on though. I believe that in the mid 1990's ZK-KTT 1808 went to New Caledonia on a south pacific sojourn .They had standard tanks plus the additional reserve tank located in the aft baggage compartment. It was commented afterwards that the the Gypsies were running very nicely.
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fergi
Flying Officer
Posts: 55
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Post by fergi on Feb 14, 2014 15:25:35 GMT 12
You mean they are photoshopped!!!!!!! You have just burst my bubble.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 14, 2014 15:56:12 GMT 12
They didn't have Photoshop back then so it must be real
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Post by camtech on Feb 14, 2014 18:56:28 GMT 12
Demonstrates the art of a real photographer, who had to manipulate real photos to make these real classic images
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Post by denysjones on Feb 14, 2014 20:48:56 GMT 12
Ah all the sadness of the young generation, real photographers did that stuff before PCs and Photoshop!
Those photos go back to the early 1970's, there was a page of them in Wings August 1974 which also included the 6 engined stretch fuselage C130 and the 9 Vulcan formation. I'm also given to suggest that the Dart AT-6 actually had the engine grafted off a Mt Cook 748 given the age of the photos.
I seem to recall them being attributed to a guy in photo sec Wigram, who due to hair colour was called Red something or other. I recall meeting the guy but that's the end of the hazy memory stuff....might have been in the Corpusles club per chance.
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Post by avenger on Feb 15, 2014 14:45:11 GMT 12
How far could a Devon fly? I have in my logbook a flight of 6 hours 15 minutes, a photographic flight so airspeed uncertain. Max logged on a navex was 4 hours 55, Wigram - Kaitaia - Whenuapai. usually flew the Navex's at an indicated 120 Knots.
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Post by davidd on Feb 16, 2014 9:50:47 GMT 12
For those who not get out and about too much on all the multivarious threads on this forum, some excellent examples of the "A" and "B" colour schemes for Devons are included on the Graeme Cossgrove photo thread. These show well the overpainted yellow wing and fuselage "training" bands, and dayglo (fluorescent) spinners, etc, which predated the later complete rear fuselage and outer wings areas of dayglo (less areas of the moveable surfaces). David D
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