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Post by noooby on Sept 30, 2013 15:32:15 GMT 12
Not sure if this is the correct forum or not.
Was out driving tonight past the local airport and saw a helicopter that looked like one from the factory that I work for (Agusta). Turned out it wasn't one of ours, but.... on the way out we drove past the Museum on the airport and in the front they have a Handley Page Hampden!
Turns out it is the only complete Hampden on display in the world. Shame it is sitting outside in the weather!
So if anybody needs photos for a model or anything, just let me know. It is pooring with rain here in British Columbia at the moment, but I'd be glad to get photos for people when the weather is better. No barriers around the aircraft so I can get as close as you like. Just tell me what you want photos of.
Cheers Graham
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Post by raymond on Sept 30, 2013 15:54:47 GMT 12
Yo
Some photos would be great thanks!
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Post by htbrst on Sept 30, 2013 16:14:20 GMT 12
I quite like the Hampden - it tends to get a little forgotten I had a look round that one a few years ago - while it's definitely a Hampden and 95% there, at the time there were various bits that still needed work to be fully representative of the breed - it will be interesting to see what progress they have made.
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Post by Andy Wright on Sept 30, 2013 16:29:45 GMT 12
She 'broke' a few years ago due to snow build up, IIRC.
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Post by dewobz on Sept 30, 2013 16:42:04 GMT 12
Hi Noooby, I don't suppose your Hampden is decked out in 489 Squadron RNZAF (RAF) torpedo bomber colours is it? I am about to build one using the old Airfix 1/72 kitset, so I am interested in details like wheel wells, undercarriage, wheels, engines, exhausts and general exterior details as well as the overall look of the aircraft. I have to admit at this stage I do not even know what these Hampden colours represented on Wings Palette are supposed to be. I think possibly a variety of Dark Sea Grey over a Light Blue, Med Sea Grey or Ghost Grey? Can anyone assist me by identifying the colours exactly? (This depiction may look quite inaccurate) 489 Sqn Hampden 1942 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr I've searched 489 Squadron online and read quite a lot of information but it is the Beaufighters that get all the attention in most of it. Many Thanks Wally. Picture courtesy of my commission client ex Wings Palette
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Post by alanw on Sept 30, 2013 18:42:14 GMT 12
Hi Graham Yes please for photos - if possible a good set of walk around photos if you don't mind? The HP hampden I think is a must for WWII RNZAF modellers. Thanks Alan Hi Wally, In one of my books the same scheme is also shown, and like you I'm not convinced that's a true scheme, unless it's supposed to represent Medium Sea Grey/Sky? I have found this build on another forum site (click on link and scroll down to third photo) the build thread has some useful info, and the builder uses Medium Sea Grey/Sky. uamf.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=116&start=15This magazine has a Hampden (black/white photo) which seems to look similar to the above build legionmagazine.com/en/index.php/2011/04/dropping-fish-air-force-part-44/Hope that helps? I have a Hampden also to eventually build in 489 Squadron Colours Thanks/Regards Alan
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Post by nuuumannn on Sept 30, 2013 19:08:17 GMT 12
Whilst the Hampden is the last surviving 'complete' example, it's a bit like the Halifax at Elvington; it's only bits of a Hampden attached to a mock-up framework. In saying that, both aircraft look the part and are a tesimony to the hard work of the organisations that built them. Would be nice to see close up photos. The RAF Museum has substantial remains of a Hampden that is currently undergoing restoration/conservation, but again, it is not complete.
That picture is Hampden II X3115, one of only two Hampdens powered by Wright Cyclones and was probably taken at Radlett. The Hampden II was not put into production.
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Post by alanw on Sept 30, 2013 19:46:56 GMT 12
Whilst the Hampden is the last surviving 'complete' example, it's a bit like the Halifax at Elvington; it's only bits of a Hampden attached to a mock-up framework. In saying that, both aircraft look the part and are a tesimony to the hard work of the organisations that built them. Would be nice to see close up photos. The RAF Museum has substantial remains of a Hampden that is currently undergoing restoration/conservation, but again, it is not complete. That picture is Hampden II X3115, one of only two Hampdens powered by Wright Cyclones and was probably taken at Radlett. The Hampden II was not put into production. Thanks for that, update on the Hampden, I guess these days if you can get real "bits" to look at that's got to be a plus Was not aware that was a Hampden II, but nice to know for future reference. The camouflage scheme on that Mk II even though Black/white still can give Wally some visual reference to go by. Thanks/regards Alan
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Post by nuuumannn on Sept 30, 2013 20:38:05 GMT 12
No worries Alan, the Hampden II picture giveaway is the nacelles; they look quite different to the Hampden B.I. X3115 was the prototype. The Hampden T.B.I (torpedo bomber variant) had a slightly deeper bomb bay than the B.I in order to incorporate the torpedo, so it might be worth looking out for that when making a model. The illustration above shows modifications to the rear of the bomb bay doors. The T.B.Is also had bomb racks under the wings to enable them to carry two 500 lb bombs as well, which you can also see in the drawing.
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Post by noooby on Oct 1, 2013 5:25:11 GMT 12
Ok, will go get photos when the weather clears. From the driveby, it looks quite nice, though a good coat of paint can hide lots!
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Post by htbrst on Oct 1, 2013 8:05:21 GMT 12
The Hampden T.B.I (torpedo bomber variant) had a slightly deeper bomb bay than the B.I in order to incorporate the torpedo, so it might be worth looking out for that when making a model. The illustration above shows modifications to the rear of the bomb bay doors. The T.B.Is also had bomb racks under the wings to enable them to carry two 500 lb bombs as well, which you can also see in the drawing. I vaguely remember that the "deeper bomb bay" description was bollocks, having been incorporated into a circa 1950's book or magazine and repeated ever since. Quite possibly by William Green? - he had a few clangers in his otherwise amazing writing back in the day. Looking forward to photos
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Post by dewobz on Oct 1, 2013 11:50:36 GMT 12
Great stuff guys. Alan W, thanks so much, you are a fount of knowledge as usual. John Ratzenberger's 489 Sqn XA-X Hampden T.B.1 build thread on uamf.org.uk is incredibly interesting and informative, containing as it does much detailing, incorporating the torpedo and his bomb bay mods (if they were true ...?) and he is very honest about "swinging blind" regarding his conversion. He says, for instance, "I was swinging blindly and while I think I had the right idea, I simply didn't know enough to modify either the kit or the Valom pieces to get it to fit correctly. I note that the Valom TB.1 does not have the mods I made so I'm not sure what I will do when I get around to that kit." Medium Sea Gray seems an odd choice to me for the uppers colour but the MSG/Sky scheme is certainly distinctive and seems a likely match for the Wings Palette picture. I will most probably go with that for my build. The Hampden II photo is also very interesting. Great discussion. I look forward to your pictures noooby.
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Post by htbrst on Oct 1, 2013 12:21:05 GMT 12
This thread has quite a bit of info: www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/70233-handley-page-hampden-bomb-bay/Particularly (if correct): Of interest is that there are so few photos of the Hampden carrying the appropriate torpedo (with tail fins added for air dropping) as the installation was secret at the time. (and that the Hampden we are talking about in Canada does not have correct bomb-bay doors)
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Post by nuuumannn on Oct 1, 2013 14:12:52 GMT 12
You you are probably right actually. Pictures of T.B.Is are few and far between although the ones that are around don't display much. I don't know if there were actually modifications to the gunner's compartment, but we know for certain that there's no way the bomb bay doors could be closed with the stabilising fins fitted to the torpedo. Take a close look at this image of a Russian Hampden with a torpedo loaded into its bomb bay; the fins are fitted and the doors are open, which suggests that it would have flown in this configuration. This picture is the same as the one in the modelling forum Alan provided the link to. There doesn't appear to be any visible alteration to the doors. The black horizontal line is also evident in Hampden B.I bomb bay doors, so don't go drawing too many conclusions from its presense in the photo. Also, the little black rectangle appears to be a cut out in other images I've come across. Note that in this image, no stabilising fins are fitted. Here are two others of T.B.Is pilfered off the net. Again, not a whole lot is visible, but the bomb bay contours are discernable. As for the alteration to the lower line (the aircraft's silhouette) of the gunner's position, I've found a picture that certainly looks like alterations were made to it, but photobucket and indeed the entire internet is on a go slow/not work at all on some sites, including this one. I've seen a rather blurry photo of a Hampden releasing its torpedo in flight; the doors are open but little else can be seen, although the small rectangular cut out mentioned above can be made out. The torpedo looks to have the fins fitted; it is falling from the aircraft (the pic is blurry). One more thing about those stabilising fins. Although in the modelling forum link Alan posted the modeller painted them grey, I've seen photographs of these fitted to Beaufighters and Beauforts and they were usually left unpainted; natural wood in colour. I hope all this helps you budding T.B.I modellers.
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Post by nuuumannn on Oct 2, 2013 12:20:07 GMT 12
Okay then, here are a couple more Hampden T.B.I images, the first being the 489 Sqn aircraft from which the profile that Wally posted is taken from. In appearance you can see that the bomb bay doors are lower than the line of the gunner's position, which suggests that either the gunner's position or the bomb bay doors were altered. Looking at other images of Hampdens it does indeed look as if the gunner's position was altered rather than the doors. This is one of the sequence of images I have in a book I've read that I mentioned in my last post. Although it adds nothing to the door/gunner's position alterations, it shows some interesting features; the torpedo with the stabilising fins being dropped and also the rectangular cutout I mentioned in my last post. Courtesy ww2images archive.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 2, 2013 14:13:39 GMT 12
The Hampden looks like the design team ran out of their allocated budget when only halfway through the fuselage, and they had to tack on the cheapest rear fuse and tail they could.
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Post by harrysone on Oct 2, 2013 15:05:58 GMT 12
...yep, typically British!
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Post by nuuumannn on Oct 3, 2013 2:34:12 GMT 12
I always thought the Hampden was more Germanic in its approach to design, particularly in its crew positions and defensive armament. Its crew was located relatively close to one another, like on contemporary German bombers, although there was no space to move about in the Hampden's fuselage. Defensive armament wise, it was the only British medium/heavy bomber of the period not to be fitted with a power operated turret.
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Post by Andy Wright on Oct 3, 2013 14:45:14 GMT 12
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Post by nuuumannn on Oct 4, 2013 15:52:38 GMT 12
Yes, indeed, very interesting; I didn't know Lachmann was actually German. He was quite a contrast in approach to George Volkert, who took over from Lachmann as Chief Designer and was responsible for what became the Halifax. Interesting to note Lachmann's mention in relation to the Manx project, which was quite an advanced research project at the time.
Both Volkert and Lachmann were unconventional thinkers for their time; the Hampden was a very different design to existing British bomber philosophy; Volkert himself was very much under the impression that heavy bomber design would change and wrote a paper in 1936 extolling the virtues of a high speed unarmed bomber (sound familiar?), not to be constructed, but more as a means of provoking discussion among the Air Staff. The Mosquito was pretty much what Volkert had in mind, although his design resembled a small mid-winged He 111 with a completely glased nose. There were many in the Air Staff who reacted favourably toward Volkert's paper and the suggestion of a 'Speed Bomber' was discussed at length. The H.P.56 twin from which the H.P.57 - the Halifax - was decidedly conventional, but was designed to match a specification that demanded gun turrets, so Volkert was not able to put his ideas into practice at the time.
The problems GdeH had with promoting the Mosquito - bearing all this in mind, was ambiguity about a unarmed bomber as a sole role; DH originally proposed the D.H.98 as a bomber only, whereas the Air Staff were in favour of other uses outside of a bomber. The other problem was that no one believd GdeH's calculated figures relating to the D.H.98 project, which, of course were accurate and I digress from the thread...
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