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Post by dewobz on Jun 11, 2015 18:14:34 GMT 12
Hi folks
I'm building a vintage 1960 Airfix 1/72 Sunderland III, given me by and for Harold Kelsey, converted to Sunderland III (Transport) NZ4102 "Tokomaru", the aircraft in which he returned from the islands via Fiji in 1944 for an operation at hospital.
Before posting the build or showcasing the model - which may be delayed until Rural Broadband is sorted out - I have a couple of questions please.
I've checked the excellent thread on here "Wartime Sunderlands" but ask for confirmation of the camouflage colours?
Were these Flying Boats left in their RAF delivery camouflage?
If so, was it Dk Earth & Dk Green over Duck Egg Blue?
Or was it Dk Sea Grey & Slate Grey over DEB or Sky Type S?
The B & W pictures look to me as though the aircraft may have been partially or completely repainted in RNZAF colours, eg Slate Grey & NZ Blue Sea Grey over (NZ) Duck Egg?
Or at least, if they were originally Dk Earth/Dk Green, the Green may have been overpainted with NZ Blue Sea Grey?
I'm hoping someone can confirm the true 1944 camo colours for me?
And ... I've forgotten what the other question was .....
Many thanks
Wally
PS - hoping the E-infrastucture around here shortly has the capacity for me to upload photos again!
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Post by Bruce on Jun 11, 2015 18:52:00 GMT 12
Dark Sea grey and Dark slate grey over Sky undersurfaces. I dont believe there was ever a repaint into RNZAF colours, but they were paint stripped later in the war and operated in bare metal - sometimes even part way through the stripping process. The Book "The Golden Age of New Zealand Flying Boats" has a lot of detail on colour schemes.
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Post by alanw on Jun 11, 2015 20:52:20 GMT 12
Hi Walley The 4 Sunderlands were delivered in the Air Ministry "Temperate Sea Scheme" of Extra Dark Sea Grey (EDSG)/ Dark Slate Grey (DSG)/SKy (or Duck Egg Blue) The aircraft were in this scheme right up to the end of hostilities with Japan. Certainly if you look at photos they were patched in places, with either RAF supplied paint, or possibly BALM copies. After WWII the aircraft were stripped back to bare metal and flew like that until transferred to NAC and or Struck off charge It's important to note that the aircraft were stripped out of offensive and defensive armamnet, if you plan to open the bomb bay doors, in the Mk III transports these folded up on hinges at the top of the bomb bay door, instead of sliding down inside. From memory Tokomaru had the "Hedgehog" part of the exhausts removed. Bare in mind that the forward edge of Airfix Sunderland Bomb bay doors are 5 mm to far back under the wings. no idea why Airfix chose to do that  Hope that helps? Alan |
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Post by dewobz on Jun 12, 2015 9:23:08 GMT 12
Thanks Bruce & Alan
My other question was, were they delivered with De-Icing Boots?
Photos of NZ4102 late in WW2 show dark areas wrap around and under the leading edges of the outer wings.
Were de-icing boots left in place? Was wrap around paint part of the delivery scheme?
Or do you think de-icing boots were removed and these areas re-painted in NZ?
Not sure why I am asking such a possibly "picky" question, since the build will not be highly accurate in other ways.
Just if you happen to know?
It's more of a "desktop model" for Harold.
I'll likely be using decals to represent the rectangular windows.
Thanks again
Wally.
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Post by alanw on Jun 12, 2015 18:08:50 GMT 12
Hi Wally
Yes they did arrive with deicing boots, bear in mind they didn't last through the whole of the remaining 8-9 months of the war.
Due to high use of the transports and tropical climes the boots eventually deteriorated.
Looking at post war photos (while the aircraft were still camouflaged), they don't appear to be there, I'm picking they were eventually removed. The paint underneath would have been what was originally applied (boots sat over the top).
The upper camouflage on the forward part of aircraft only came down the sides to the edge of the planeing bottom, the planeing bottom was Sky.
The rear part of the fuselage, the upper camouflage only came down 3/4 of the way, the rest was Sky.
Hope that helps?
Regards
Alan
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Post by dewobz on Jun 13, 2015 9:10:31 GMT 12
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Post by dewobz on Jun 27, 2015 16:31:22 GMT 12
Current computer and broadband issues make it impossible for me to post the whole build on here, but it can be mostly seen over on kiwimodeller.com Here's my finished Short Sunderland Mk III (Transport) NZ4102 "Tokomaru", probably more like mid-'45 as I have weathered her quite alot. Photos do show severe exhaust & other (oil?) stains on the wings. The rectangular windows are black decals cut from D-Day stripes, with some small round ones punched out on an old leather punch! Montex masks for Italeri Sunderland Mk I were used which didn't quite match the dear old Airfix specs. I sanded the Airfix rivets back but not off and scribed some entirely fictitious panel lines for effect. Purely a fun build for a very dear elderly gentleman from Motukaraka and WW2 veteran. And great fun it was too! I shall hopefully post photos of when I present it to him within the month -  DSCN2185 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2184 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2183 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2179 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2177 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2191 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2193 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2194 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2195 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2188 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2202 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr  DSCN2199 by Wally Hicks, on Flickr Airfix 1960 kitset, some scratch-built cockpit detail, Aeromaster acrylic & Tamiya enamel paints, Ventura decals (1/48 PV-1 Ventura insignia overlayed on fuselage & underwings - they are 2 decals thick - plus 1/32 Avenger upper wing insignia - with consequent RNZAF Blue colour discrepancy. (The upper wing roundels are quite faded!). Enjoy!!! Regards Wally. |
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Post by baz62 on Jun 27, 2015 18:21:07 GMT 12
Lovely work! Broadband issues......you aren't with Vodafone are you?
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Post by Calum on Jun 27, 2015 21:28:42 GMT 12
Looks terrific Wal
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Post by dewobz on Jun 28, 2015 7:31:19 GMT 12
Thanks for your comments.
Baz, not Vodafone - which would probly be much faster - but a very old laptop with issues connected via copper in a Rural Broadband area with issues in a very remote place, Kohukohu, North Hokianga.
Sometimes it all slows down to little more than dial-up speed.
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Post by alanw on Jun 28, 2015 16:13:07 GMT 12
Hi Wally,
Your model looks really good.
Thanks for sharing your model photos with us.
Regards
Alan
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Post by ZacYates on Jun 29, 2015 8:30:08 GMT 12
I like it! Our Pacific camo and roundels seem to make anything look good. Hard to believe it's an old tool Airfix kit!
Was this one stationed in a particularly stagnant body of water?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2015 13:53:03 GMT 12
I'm not sure Mechanics Bay in Auckland would be considered stagnant.
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Post by dewobz on Jun 30, 2015 9:24:08 GMT 12
I patriotically agree about the RNZAF roundels.
Even with colour discrepancies they make any aircraft rock.
Good question Zac,
Harold Kelsey flew home from Fiji in it so I guess up there it was at anchor in Lathuala Bay (forgive spelling), which is tropical and I believe is very sheltered? Don't know about stagnant though?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2015 9:34:11 GMT 12
Look at Lauthala Bay on Google Maps. It's a huge bay, protected by a reef but not especially sheltered I don't think, compared with some bays.
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Post by Bruce on Jun 30, 2015 12:55:45 GMT 12
The tide line looks good to me. The water doesnt have to be stagnant for marine growth to appear on the hulls - Just look at any Marina, or even a beach. The Sunderlands spent the vast majority of their non - airborne time moored to swing moorings, and only were beached for heavier maintenance, so there would always be a line where marine organisms were starting to grow. Obviously, unlike a wharf which has tides, a floating flying boat will always have the water in the same place!  Awesome model! |
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Post by komata on Jun 30, 2015 14:49:19 GMT 12
Very nice indeed. Thank you for sharing the completed result. Was this the aircraft that S/L Keith Patience flew out to NZ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2015 23:48:58 GMT 12
Would they have had to beach the flying boats regularly to remove barnacles so the aerodynamics were not affected? I guess barnacles on the hull may not have been as detrimental as ice on a wing?
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Post by dewobz on Jul 1, 2015 7:26:11 GMT 12
Komata, it's interesting you raise the subject of who flew them out to NZ. In my research I do recall seeing it involved 124hrs of flying time! (Or perhaps total time?). Yesterday I took the 'Harold Kelsey' Sunderland & Avenger models to show his younger cousin Stan Bawden who still lives here in Motukaraka. Stan and wife Phyllis mentioned that another cousin of Stan's (I think) - and I will need to contact them again for the name - flew one of our RNZAF Sunderlands out from England, but I am not sure which. Yet another cousin and (I believe) RNZAF veteran , Graham Bawden, lives at Ranfurly Veterans Home where my own father Owen Hicks lives now. The family has very strong connections to RNZAF and particularly Avengers, Venturas and this Sunderland. Harold recounts a tale of 'buzzing' the Motukara area where he grew up in a Ventura when he was home-based in the BR Squadrons in 1945.
There is a really good Sunderland thread on here, where I found many useful B&W photos, most of them showing a distinct tide-line. Wings Palette provided a colour picture of an RAAF Sunderland with a kinda greeny-brown tide-mark and I checked out a local fishing boat in dry-dock and an old bathtub laying outdoors at a mate's place. I jokingly said on kiwimodeller I copied it from my own bathroom.
Thanks for the feedback and enjoyable discussion.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2015 11:02:14 GMT 12
Somewhere on the forum we have previously discussed the crews who ferried the Sunderlands to NZ, including, I'm sure, full crew lists.
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Awesome model!
