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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2016 14:43:33 GMT 12
Leasing a passenger ferry or two to ply between Picton and Chch seems sensible.
Maybe Al and Marty can restart the SAFE Air Bristol Freighter service too?
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Nov 15, 2016 15:05:55 GMT 12
The problem with a Wellington to Lyttelton ferry service is that eventually SH1 will be opened for traffic again and then people will choose to cross to Picton and drive from there to Christchurch, then the bottom will suddenly drop out of the Wellington-Lyttelton ferry business again. As a result, no company will touch the route.
A Wellington-Lyttelton ferry service used to be viable once. Then in 1962, the Cook Strait rail ferry service started between Wellington and Picton (after many years of intense lobbying by the various AAs around NZ, trucking companies, and others); and the public stopped supporting the already existing service and used the rail ferries, then drove to Christchurch (and vice versa). It is considerably quicker to go by ferry to Picton, then drive from there to Christchurch, than to go by ferry all the way from Wellington to Lyttelton, which is why the Lyttelton service entered a decline after the rail ferries began. And these days, with two ferry services providing regular services across Cook Strait between Wellington and Picton, you'd be taking a HUGE risk to sink money into a Wellington-Lyttelton operation.
Also for a shipping company, a roll-on, roll-off ferry can do up to three return trips between Wellington and Picton every 24 hours if necessary, whereas the same type of ferry can only do a single return trip per 24-hours between Wellington and Lyttelton, so you are tying up a huge amount of capital in a ship which isn't going to have anywhere near the earning capacity of a ship which operates between Wellington and Picton.
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Post by pepe on Nov 15, 2016 16:02:52 GMT 12
The problem with a Wellington to Lyttelton ferry service is that eventually SH1 will be opened for traffic again and then people will choose to cross to Picton and drive from there to Christchurch, then the bottom will suddenly drop out of the Wellington-Lyttelton ferry business again. As a result, no company will touch the route. A Wellington-Lyttelton ferry service used to be viable once. Then in 1962, the Cook Strait rail ferry service started between Wellington and Picton (after many years of intense lobbying by the various AAs around NZ, trucking companies, and others); and the public stopped supporting the already existing service and used the rail ferries, then drove to Christchurch (and vice versa). It is considerably quicker to go by ferry to Picton, then drive from there to Christchurch, than to go by ferry all the way from Wellington to Lyttelton, which is why the Lyttelton service entered a decline after the rail ferries began. And these days, with two ferry services providing regular services across Cook Strait between Wellington and Picton, you'd be taking a HUGE risk to sink money into a Wellington-Lyttelton operation. Also for a shipping company, a roll-on, roll-off ferry can do up to three return trips between Wellington and Picton every 24 hours if necessary, whereas the same type of ferry can only do a single return trip per 24-hours between Wellington and Lyttelton, so you are tying up a huge amount of capital in a ship which isn't going to have anywhere near the earning capacity of a ship which operates between Wellington and Picton. All very correct. Though I do wonder if one of the existing ferry companies wouldn't consider the route on a shorter term basis? Does the Port of Lyttelton still have the required Ro-Ro facilities?
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Post by delticman on Nov 15, 2016 16:06:05 GMT 12
The problem with a Wellington to Lyttelton ferry service is that eventually SH1 will be opened for traffic again and then people will choose to cross to Picton and drive from there to Christchurch, then the bottom will suddenly drop out of the Wellington-Lyttelton ferry business again. As a result, no company will touch the route. A Wellington-Lyttelton ferry service used to be viable once. Then in 1962, the Cook Strait rail ferry service started between Wellington and Picton (after many years of intense lobbying by the various AAs around NZ, trucking companies, and others); and the public stopped supporting the already existing service and used the rail ferries, then drove to Christchurch (and vice versa). It is considerably quicker to go by ferry to Picton, then drive from there to Christchurch, than to go by ferry all the way from Wellington to Lyttelton, which is why the Lyttelton service entered a decline after the rail ferries began. And these days, with two ferry services providing regular services across Cook Strait between Wellington and Picton, you'd be taking a HUGE risk to sink money into a Wellington-Lyttelton operation. Also for a shipping company, a roll-on, roll-off ferry can do up to three return trips between Wellington and Picton every 24 hours if necessary, whereas the same type of ferry can only do a single return trip per 24-hours between Wellington and Lyttelton, so you are tying up a huge amount of capital in a ship which isn't going to have anywhere near the earning capacity of a ship which operates between Wellington and Picton. All very correct. Though I do wonder if one of the existing ferry companies wouldn't consider the route on a shorter term basis? Does the Port of Lyttelton still have the required Ro-Ro facilities?
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Post by delticman on Nov 15, 2016 16:23:33 GMT 12
A RoRo isn't just any old ship that can berth anywhere. If you have a look at Bluebridge, they cant use one of their vessels because of damaged berths. Getting a RoRo from Europe could take two months and even if it's just chartered it still has to be up to New Zealand Standards.
Once the ferry terminals are back in full action the main route will be to Blenheim /Christchurch via Wairau Valley-Murchison- Springs Junction- Culverdon- Waipara. No big deal.
The new Parcel Air 737's have space to spare. We also have some Convairs sitting at Palmy. I'm sure Airwork/ Air Chats could provide crews if air freight was needed.
I hear the Inland Kaikoura Road will be open in the next couple of days.
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Post by ErrolC on Nov 15, 2016 17:17:50 GMT 12
South Island freight lines expected to be out of action for monthsIt's going to be months before the South Island's freight lines will be fully operational. Monday's 7.5-magnitude earthquake destroyed parts of State Highway 1 and railway lines between Blenheim and Christchurch. Most freight, including food, goes north to south. Companies that send goods via truck and train are already scrambling to sort out an alternative option – shipping. The extent of the damage was still unknown, said Todd Moyle, KiwiRail Group's general manager asset services. Early indications are that the lines will take months to fix, he said. "We are still in the process of assessing the full extent of the damage. There are areas that we can't or haven't gotten to yet," Moyle said. The company was working on alternative strategies that exist – coastal shipping options that were already in play will be used, Moyle said. "We are working with our freight partners at the moment to figure it all out." Maersk was already fielding a flood of calls, said Gerard Morrison, managing director for Maersk Line New Zealand and Australia. "We are receiving an enormous amount of inquiries at the moment and people looking to see what they are able to do. "To be fair, there's a lot of people still dealing with the actual challenge." It could be a week until the actual demand of freight movement was realised, Morrison said. The company announced last week it was set to increase the number of its shipping routes around New Zealand in January. "We have already been exploring if we can expedite the start to that service. Already it looks highly unlikely." The vessels it has sourced don't become available until January.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2016 17:32:04 GMT 12
The problem with a Wellington to Lyttelton ferry service Forget Wellington. The Wellington to Picton ferry can run as normal. But tourists and others are not going to get from Picton to Christchurch via road or rail for a long time, unless they take the extra long West Coast route by road. Which is why I suggested leasing - ie short term! - a ferry between Picton and Christchurch for passengers. It does not need to be a car ferry. It's the only alternative to flying or driving twice the distance. They had such things in the olden days, it could easily work again for the period needed even if it's subsidised by Govt. t could call at Kaikoura and other places along the way and provide a lifeline in public transport. Bringing in tourists to the places that need money coming in. Air New Zealand, Sounds Air and others may also find they have a stronger demand for that route too.
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Post by ErrolC on Nov 15, 2016 17:48:17 GMT 12
It's a lot easier to increase airline services Wel-Chc, I doubt a ferry would be cheaper even ignoring cost of getting one here.
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Post by beagle on Nov 15, 2016 17:54:34 GMT 12
my thought was if you had a decent bulldozer at Kaikoura and cleared more land, laid down some crushed rock etc. using army engineers, even the planking like they used in Vietnam and extend the runway to take a Herk.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2016 18:01:07 GMT 12
Are you hoping to get another new camera out of this quake Beags?
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Post by beagle on Nov 15, 2016 18:30:57 GMT 12
no but, a big tree has started making cracks in my driveway so maybe, mmmmmmmmm
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Post by camtech on Nov 15, 2016 18:44:08 GMT 12
Why is Kaikoura's airstrip unusable by C-130? Is it too short or is it damaged? The Hercs could surely airdrop in supplies if they're needed. I guess the sealed strip has a very low weight classification for a C-130 with a reasonable load, and possibly too narrow.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2016 18:51:08 GMT 12
Ah that would make a lot of sense.
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Post by joey05 on Nov 15, 2016 19:05:29 GMT 12
Why is Kaikoura's airstrip unusable by C-130? Is it too short or is it damaged? The Hercs could surely airdrop in supplies if they're needed. I guess the sealed strip has a very low weight classification for a C-130 with a reasonable load, and possibly too narrow. The sealed runway is 700x10m, not sure of minimums for a herc but know that at woodbourne if the runways wet and a heavy cross wind they can't operate on it and its 1400x45. Also the bitumen at kaikoura is very light and it's built on sand dunes so imagine a herc would cause major damage. There are local flights with caravans and Cessna/beech twins taking food parcels and the likes to from Omaka to Kaikoura.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Nov 15, 2016 19:05:47 GMT 12
The problem with a Wellington to Lyttelton ferry service Forget Wellington. The Wellington to Picton ferry can run as normal. But tourists and others are not going to get from Picton to Christchurch via road or rail for a long time, unless they take the extra long West Coast route by road. Which is why I suggested leasing - ie short term! - a ferry between Picton and Christchurch for passengers. It does not need to be a car ferry. It's the only alternative to flying or driving twice the distance. They had such things in the olden days, it could easily work again for the period needed even if it's subsidised by Govt. t could call at Kaikoura and other places along the way and provide a lifeline in public transport. Bringing in tourists to the places that need money coming in. Air New Zealand, Sounds Air and others may also find they have a stronger demand for that route too. Try getting a ferry on a short term lease from the other side of the world ('cause that's where you have to go to get one). Then you've got to employ crew and get them certified to operate it, and train them to work in NZ waters. Then there is the issue of suitable terminals at each end of the journey. While Lyttelton used to have a suitable terminal, it was demolished decades ago after the demise of the Union Steamship Company service between Lyttelton and Wellington. By the time you finally get it all sorted out, including all the necessary safety certification, many months will have gone by and SH1 and the railway line will be very close to opening again. Just as you cannot start an airline from scratch in a short timespan, you cannot start a passenger shipping operation in the same timespan. And then there are the economics....take away the people who want to take their vehicle across Cook Strait, and it is looking very shakey, financially.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2016 19:26:31 GMT 12
It's that sort of attitude that has ruined this country.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Nov 15, 2016 19:58:27 GMT 12
It's that sort of attitude which makes it considerably less likely for a “Wahine disaster” to occur again.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2016 20:15:49 GMT 12
Sorry Bruce, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 15, 2016 20:31:52 GMT 12
I am sure there will be much thought going into this dilemma with short and long term solutions being considered.
In warfare terms I am sure Barnes Wallis, or similar, would suggest an earthquake bomb to take out sections of that rail/road corridor south of Kaikoura it is of such strategic importance.
My first thoughts when I felt that quake the other day were of the slips in that region.
I read a good article that seemed to spell out the true cost we are facing in the immediate term with the use of the alternate inland roads. A Google of 'A transport perspective on the Kaikoura Earthquake' should find the article.
I see container freight to ChCh being an option with the improved handling facilities in the region. Forget RO/RO as the passengers can just fly or drive up through the middle.
The coastal route will eventually come back into the play but for many businesses they will find tourist accommodation being used for construction crews in the meantime.
The bright side will be the improved route and facilities the country will have in 5 years time.
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Post by madmac on Nov 15, 2016 20:59:36 GMT 12
Could be cheaper just to move the ferry port to gore bay, than to rebuild the road and rail links to the required standards, particularly if combined with the proposed Whanganui to Motueka ferry link, which we clearly need to improve the robustness of the north south links.
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