|
Post by rone on Apr 20, 2018 18:27:44 GMT 12
Does any member recall the above incident when the Bristol Freighter took off with the rudder lock still in place. From memory the aircraft made a verrrry wide circuit to aline with the runway again to enable a landing. Also from memory the driver was new on the job and did not do a proper walk-around. Was around 1954 or so maybe.
|
|
|
Post by planecrazy on Apr 20, 2018 19:49:19 GMT 12
Not a pilot so not qualified to comment, she'd be pretty hard to taxi as well?
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Apr 20, 2018 20:15:03 GMT 12
Not a story I am familiar with. Re taxying, differential engine power and brakes would make it reasonably straightforward.
|
|
|
Post by planewriting on Apr 20, 2018 20:48:13 GMT 12
I'm sure I recall my father once telling me of similar instances involving an NAC DC-3 and an RNZAF Sunderland. Not heard of it involving a B170 but that's not to say it didn't happen.
|
|
|
Post by rone on Apr 21, 2018 11:49:47 GMT 12
That's strange, I thought with all these ex airforce types on here, someone would have been stationed at WH or Hobby around 60's who would know about it. Seems I am the only person who knows about it,I find that hard to believe. It made headlines in the papers at the time. Ah well, no interest.
|
|
|
Post by xbaggy on Apr 21, 2018 12:20:23 GMT 12
The B170 rudder lock was linked to the two elevator locks by a long ribbon. So to fly with the rudder lock installed the elevator locks would probably be in place as well. Bit tricky doing a circuit with those installed.
|
|
|
Post by rone on Apr 21, 2018 14:05:14 GMT 12
All replies so far hint that this incident did not/ could not happen. Perhaps a more skilled person is able to peruse the NZ Herald or Auckland Star files to search this out. Likewise the incident is listed amongst official files somewhere. All I know is when the truth comes out there will be a few blushes. There must be records of Courts Marshall held a Whenuapai surely.
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Apr 21, 2018 14:40:10 GMT 12
As no mention of any such an incident in reported accidents 1951 - 1955, I take it that no damage was incurred. It also might not have administratively been considered an "accident" in the first place, although definitely requiring an inquiry of some sort, as the consequences could have been disastrous. Also have no memory of any Courts Martial involving such an incident (and believe me, there are some interesting and memorable ones which came to my notice during my methodical trolling through Air Department Orders during this period, most of which would not have come to the notice of the newspapers, although whether a truncated version of the results or recommendations were ever reported subsequently I could not say, such as loss of seniority, reprimands, etc.) However there were literally dozens of Bristol Freighter "incidents" during the period, including two fatals, plus collisions with trucks (not entirely unexpected, including B.170 hits truck - rare - and truck hits B.170 - rather more common, and also one air to air collision, which must have been spectacular, but no aircraft were lost! Most incidents involved ignition problems, and engine failures. David D
|
|
|
Post by tbf25o4 on Apr 21, 2018 17:03:29 GMT 12
The museum's dakota NZ3551 was subject of a high speed taxi with the tail up one day at Wigram in the late 1970s with the rudder lock still in.
|
|
|
Post by xbaggy on Apr 21, 2018 17:12:04 GMT 12
In my time it was the Airframe baggies job to remove the external control locks as part of the Before Flight inspection. This would be verified by the crew member doing the walk around preflight. The internal control lock would be left in until the aircraft Captain took his seat. He could not miss it as it had a big round disc on it that sat right in front of his face.
|
|
|
Post by rone on Apr 21, 2018 17:20:33 GMT 12
Seems to be doubters still. Davidd, I mentioned 1954 or so, I may be out a year or so, are you able to search into early 60's. I clearly recall a Court Martial (apologies for previous misspelling).
|
|
|
Post by rone on Apr 21, 2018 17:29:15 GMT 12
xbaggy, in reply to your first post, of what I remember the a/c was airborne for quite some time before being able to align with the runway. Your second reply also is doubting, I do not know when you were in, but if after this incident, it is quite possible, is it not, that the "big round disc" was introduced after this episode?
|
|
|
Post by kevsmith on Apr 21, 2018 19:10:29 GMT 12
The big round disc was at the top of the standard Bristol internal lock so unlikely it was introduced due to this possible incident. Steering while taxiing was always by use of the brakes as the tail wheel was fully castoring and not connected to the rudder pedals. The tail wheel lock was electrically operated and had a 5 minute "ON" limit so was seldom used while taxiing. However the pilot of this incident would surely have known he had a problem during take-off when attempting to use the rudder shortly after commencing the take-off, at the speed where the rudder would be usable aerodynamically to keep the aircraft straight once the tail was up. (Tail wheel lock was ON for take-off and landing) And of course in flight, the rudder was really only used to balance the aircraft (i.e. avoiding skids or slips) while entering and leaving a turn and as required during the turn, the same as most other aircraft. Mind you, I am only talking about NZ civil operated Freighters!
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 23, 2018 9:26:24 GMT 12
OK, this comes from the legendary Bud Rose, via Don Nicholson. Don had also heard of the incident and asked Bud what he recalled. Bud replied with the following:
"Yes Pilot was Flt Lt Roy Isles (part Maori and had a checkered career in the RNZAF but I found him a great C47 pilot). Don't remember the number of the aircraft or the crew but the normal pre-flight was carried out, start up and taxi normal, pre take off run up all OK then take off for leg to Rukuhia on weekly shuttle through all the bases to Taieri, out on Wednesday and back on Friday.
Take off appeared normal and climb out to altitude all good till top of climb about overhead Pukekohe when he pulled power off to ECB (economical cruising boost, normal on the Bristol 737 engine) and the aircraft started to dive and pulling back on the control column made no impression and use of the trim tabs for the elevators didn't work either. By increasing the power, the nose came up again and Roy realised he had a problem and turned back to Whenuapai maintaining alt by changing the power inputs. Ailerons and rudder were all OK but no elevators.
Control tower was notified and Roy made an approach on 26 coming over Hobby toward the West still controlling the pitch by power adjustments. Normal landing drills carried out but approach speed a lot higher than normal to maintain altitude control and the aircraft landed quite heavily onto 26 and taxied in with the elevator locks still in place and held on by the bungy cords.
Roy had several events with the freighter. Landed short at Woodbourne and caught a fence post on the fuselage just forward of the tail wheel. In 1954 when we were about to depart Norfolk for Wp after salvaging Freighter 01 which crashed in the Monsoon Drain in Mauripur, we saw a B170 taxiing in a bit sideways and Roy was taking a load of airmen to Cyprus but hit the edge of the runway (solid rock) about mid axle on the port under cart. He asked me to do a survey and see if he could carry on but the landing gear was sprung and the Y strut attachment to the rear spar was sheered so it wasn't going anywhere. I got our Sig, Syd Vincent to call up Wp and we sent a report to the CTO Derm Hurley detailing all the damage.
Roy also had at least 2 events in a C47 when he raised the undercart up just before getting airborne and graunched the stbd aileron on the runway trying to maintain level flight. On another occasion he was number 4 in a formation of C47s when he caught the top of a pine tree in his tail wheel when approaching runway 22 at Wp. No great damage apart from branches in the tail wheel assembly. Anything else you want to know?? Bud."
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Apr 23, 2018 9:38:02 GMT 12
rone, I only have access at present to accidents up to and including 25 July 1956, but as mentioned, as no damage incurred, this incident may not have been considered an accident, even if that was only down to good luck and/or good judgement. David D
|
|
|
Post by markrogers on Apr 23, 2018 9:52:49 GMT 12
Sounds like to me that aircrew at that time didn't do walkaround checks before hopping into the cockpit? So was it ground crew who did the removing of control locks and it was their responsibilty to do so before the aircrew boarded the aircraft?
|
|
|
Post by xbaggy on Apr 23, 2018 10:34:54 GMT 12
In the RNZAF in my time before any Aircraft went flying each trade was required to carry out a "Before Flight Inspection" and sign it off in the A/C F700 log. Part of the Airframe Baggies inspection was to remove the external control locks and stow them in the A/C and leave the internal control lock engaged in the cockpit. As you can imagine a servicing stand was needed to remove the Aileron locks, and a small set of steps needed to climb up onto the walkway area inboard of the Elevators to remove the Rudder control lock. The two Elevator locks and the Rudder lock were linked together by a red ribbon which fluttered in the breeze and were marked "Remove Before Flight". The Elevator locks also had dangly red ribbons hanging underneath marked "Remove Before Flight", as did the Ailerons. It is surprising that the Baggie carrying out the Before Flight, Aircrew, Passengers, Marshaller/ Dispatcher all missed the red flags fluttering in the wind. Then there is the A/C Captains pre takeoff check "Controls full and free movement ?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 23, 2018 10:43:38 GMT 12
Do you recall the pilot mentioned, Xbaggy?
|
|
|
Post by xbaggy on Apr 23, 2018 10:56:01 GMT 12
No Dave, I spent my time at Woodbourne and part of it was working on B170 overhaul and modifications. Only got to know Aircrew through test flying and riding the shuttle, sorry "Blue Band Airlines". In my service I cannot recall any specific instances of control locks being left in. But in saying that at TTS during our Mechs and Fitters courses we were told lots of stories, some true and others not, to reinforce the point being taught As I am sure you were. There certainly were incidents and accidents because of breakdowns in the system.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 23, 2018 16:18:42 GMT 12
Here is further to the incident from Bud, who thinks it happened in 1953 but is not certain:
"... to expand on the day of the incident, the weather was fresh and gusty Westerlies, and as the pre-flight is started at the main hatch (door on the port side aft) the inspection is started with the port stabiliser and elevator, then rudder, and as the elevators were probably moving up and down violently in the wind, Roy put the locks back on meaning to remove them prior to climbing aboard. Inspection then goes to the starboard side rear of wing out to tip into engine and undercart, then front freight doors, and pitot heads, then Port undercart and engine, port wing front and rear, then inside, and Roy probably forgot about the locks right there. I know the elevators used to move round a lot in a strong tail wind.
Another thing about the Frightener is that even with the locks on, there is quite a lot of movement of the control column due to the torque system and in a windy situation checking for full and free movement of the controls it would be easy to think you had full control of the elevators without having them banging about to the stops. "
|
|