|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 17, 2011 22:35:13 GMT 12
thomarse, lots of airfields had the fake aircraft to confuse the enemy. eg Nelson had fake Hudsons and Hurricanes. Kumeu had a field set up with fake planes to look like a fighter base in the hope that the enemy might waste their bombs there and not see Hobsonville which was camouflaged.
|
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Jul 17, 2011 22:44:29 GMT 12
Errol, would the trade not have been renamed Navigator by then rather than Observer? quote] This excerpt from my For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 (Volume Three: Biographies & Appendices) explains: The duties of the WWI observer differed significantly from those of his WWII counterpart, being primarily those of air gunner and a combination of photography, reconnaissance or artillery spotting work and, towards war’s end, navigation. The trade was hastily and rather unwisely abandoned in the post-war RAF, which was heavily fixated on the idea of pilot-only aircrew (with the use of ground crew as part-time air gunners). When belatedly re-introduced in the mid-1930s, the duties of the observer (aka air observer) had been adjusted to include only air gunnery, photography, bombing and navigation. With the introduction of more specialised aircrew in early 1942 the observer’s duties were divided into two new trades – that of navigator and air bomber (aka bomb aimer). In addition to his bomb-aiming duties, and acting as front gunner when the need arose, the air bomber could assist the navigator (normally ensconced in a separate cabin further back) by map reading from his advantageous position in the nose of the aircraft.* It would take some time for the new system to become fully established, however, and their new ‘N’ (navigator) and ‘B’ (air bomber) badges, in particular, took an extraordinarily long time to appear. The RNZAF was also slow to adapt to the new regime. Almost a year after the RAF’s decision to make the change it was still mustering or remustering as observers trainee aircrew destined for training in Canada as navigators or air bombers. * On some heavy bomber sorties during the latter part of WWII an additional air bomber was added to the crew, the second man being deployed in the rear cabin alongside the navigator to assist in operating some of his electronic equipment, in which case he was referred to as ‘Nav 2’. Errol |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 17, 2011 23:02:44 GMT 12
So if I understand this right, all the RNZAF navigators with service numbers starting with NZ41 and prior year prefixes would have been called Air Observers and worn the 'O' badge? I had thought the system had changed much earlier when the RNZAF began to get trained in Canada.
Also once they had the 'O' badge and the system changed were they forced to change badges to 'N'? Or did they keep the 'O' their whole career?
|
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Jul 18, 2011 0:14:39 GMT 12
So if I understand this right, all the RNZAF navigators with service numbers starting with NZ41 and prior year prefixes would have been called Air Observers and worn the 'O' badge? I had thought the system had changed much earlier when the RNZAF began to get trained in Canada. Also once they had the 'O' badge and the system changed were they forced to change badges to 'N'? Or did they keep the 'O' their whole career? Not quite as simple as that. Keep in mind that navigation was just one of an air observer's roles, whereas a 'navigator' was just that and only that. Many NZ41xxxx airman trained as air observers in Canada up to mid-1942, but there will have been exceptions, e.g. those whose training was delayed (or they may have remustered from some other trade) to the point where they came out as navs and not AOs. As mentioned earlier, the N badges were slow in coming and so for a time trained navs were graduating with O badges. Those trained as navs and those remustered from AOs as navs were instructed to exchange their O badges for N badges once these came available. There was, however, a strong and perverse pride in having worn the Flying Arsehole, and the instruction was more honored in the breach than the observance. Those wanting to get grips with the details this complex subject will find Wg Cdr Jeff Jefford's majesterial Observers and Navigators and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF and excellent guide. Errol |
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jul 18, 2011 1:24:51 GMT 12
My father in law, DJ Martin (ITW July 1941 pilot u/t intake) was remustered after failing at No 3 EFTS as an Air Observer u/t. He trained in Canada and graduated 4th August 1942 as an Observer, his graduation photo clearly shows the arsehole badge. I recall reading that his course was one of the last A/O groups to be trained.
He then did a Special Observers Course at No 1 B&G, Ontario during Aug/Sept 1942. This training was on bombing techniques and his flying log identifies his duty as bomb aimer. The class photo shows all trainees on this course wearing Observer badges.
He went on to serve with XV Squadron as a Bomb Aimer.
In his RAF service record his trade is first listed as Observer II then crossed out to be replaced by Nav B. No date is given for this change. In his RNZAF record his trade is given as A/B (Air Bomber) in Dec 1942 and there after.
Unfortunately the two photos I have of him in uniform in England don't show the left side of his jacket. So interesting question, did he continue to wear with pride the A/O brevet.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2011 2:40:56 GMT 12
What I really meant to ask was if an RNZAF airman was crewing in the position of the navigator in an aircraft such as a Hudson up till say 1942, and their service number was NZ39XXXX ot NZ40XXXX or NZ41XXXX, is it safe to assume they were all fully trained Air Observers? Or were there also straight Navigators trained in the RNZAF in those early years of 1939-41 too?
It's a ll a little bit confusing. I have found people in my research who are referred to as both Observers and Navigators in varying sources and I guess one could mean their trade and one their role on the aircraft. But Id like to know if I can definitively take it as read that anyone before a NZ42XXXX service number in that role was a fully trained Air Observer, or if there were both trades earlier too?
|
|
|
|
Post by pjw4118 on Jul 18, 2011 9:02:49 GMT 12
Errols quite right with his comments. I can only add that the veterans I know did their prelim training here as either W/Op - Air Gunners or Observers . In Canada they trained specifically as observers including nav, wireless , aerial photography etc but their final exam papers are for Navigation. They were passed as Observers and presented with the flying O.
Many then went and bought the RCAF N badge as they considered themselves a cut above an Observer.
Once in Britain the responsibilities were strictly related to their trade but a lot of skippers ensured each man on the crew had a back up including one for himself.
|
|
|
|
Post by shorty on Jul 18, 2011 9:36:50 GMT 12
Thomarse, In post #1 it states in the photo caption that the reunion was in April 82
|
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Jul 18, 2011 11:25:08 GMT 12
What I really meant to ask was if an RNZAF airman was crewing in the position of the navigator in an aircraft such as a Hudson up till say 1942, and their service number was NZ39XXXX ot NZ40XXXX or NZ41XXXX, is it safe to assume they were all fully trained Air Observers? Or were there also straight Navigators trained in the RNZAF in those early years of 1939-41 too? It's a ll a little bit confusing. I have found people in my research who are referred to as both Observers and Navigators in varying sources and I guess one could mean their trade and one their role on the aircraft. But Id like to know if I can definitively take it as read that anyone before a NZ42XXXX service number in that role was a fully trained Air Observer, or if there were both trades earlier too? Dave, There were no ‘straight navigators’ in the RAF or RNZAF prior to mid-1942. In the early days of the war the RAF found itself short of AOs and often had to resort to using a second pilot to act as navigator. The same may have applied here when the RNZAF received its first Hudsons? David Duxbury is the expert in these matters, should you need further detail or confirmation. Navigation was the AO’s primary role, hence the tendency of some of the old timers to describe themselves as simply as navs when in fact they were qualified and fulfilling other roles as well. Also, following the new specialisation of aircrew roles policy introduced in 1942, many AOs were subsequently remustered as straight navs and so would naturally refer to their role as navigator. As mentioned earlier, Jeff Jefford’s book is an excellent guide to the complexities of non-pilot aircrew training. Errol |
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Jul 18, 2011 11:36:27 GMT 12
Many then went and bought the RCAF N badge as they considered themselves a cut above an Observer. I believe this would be a relatively rare occurrence and not one that applied to 'many'. And of course not until late 1942 at the earliest. Production of badges became something of a cottage industry and as a result there is a wide variation in format, some not even close to the officially laid down badges. (Even a few two-wing AG badges appeared for a brief time!) Once again, I can't recommend too strongly Jeff Jefford's book for those seeking an insight into the complexities of this tricky subject of non-aircrew training. Errol |
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Jul 18, 2011 11:58:58 GMT 12
Regarding the introduction of straight navigator training in Canada as a result of the the RAF's decision to introduce specialised aircrew training:
From the diary of E J Insull, RNZAF, who had arrived at No. 4 AOS, Crumlin near London, Ontario for AO training on 26 May 1942:
28 June 1942
"The Chief Ground Instructor informed us today that our course, and all those to follow, are to be trained as straight navigators and not observers, in other words, we will do no more bombing theory or gunnery work, but will concentrate on Navigation and remain here at Crumlin for our Astro Navigation courses instead of going, as has been the practice, to Rivers for this part of the work. He said that the decision was the result of the fact that large four-engined bombers are in production (and use) requiring a crew of seven; and that the observer's duties are now to be divided into those of a Navigator, and a bomb-aimer who will also be a Front Gunner. So it looks as if we are earmarked for heavy bombers."
Errol
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2011 16:36:02 GMT 12
Thanks Errol, that's great info.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomarse on Jul 18, 2011 21:15:30 GMT 12
Shorty
I had seen the date of April 1982. My question was "where" the reunion was, as to the best of my knowledge there was nowhere near Kimberley for a Harvard to have been landed in 1982, except somewhere that would have generated a hell of a lot of local interest!
Was there an RNZAF Harvard flying in 1982?
|
|
|
|
Post by Damon on Jul 18, 2011 21:39:06 GMT 12
Probably NZ1015 would have been flying at that time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2011 21:50:23 GMT 12
Wereroa had it's own strip right by the station. Maybe it was still serviceable in 1982?
|
|
|
|
Post by thomarse on Jul 19, 2011 7:36:01 GMT 12
There were certainly paddocks there when I flew from Tararua Road just nearby (about four paddocks away) in the late 60s, but no sign of the old strip. I tend to think that if it was usable at that stage and capable of aircraft the size of Oxfords and Hudsons, there would have been more use made of it.
The Weraroa strip was also across the road from the Base, and I think it would have been an extremely interesting exercise to get the Harvard in there - that's why I'm interested.
|
|
|
|
Post by jonesy on Aug 15, 2011 20:29:14 GMT 12
Most RNZAF aircrew personnel and many WAAF's were inducted into the Air Force at Levin up till 1942, in the Initial Training Wing, and though there was a runway there and it was used for a short time by No. 1 (Bomber) Operational Training Unit (Oxfords and Hudsons), I am not aware of any flying training in Tiger Moths there, which is why I am curious. It is more likely he did ITW training there, which was purely six weeks of uniform issue, drill, shooting, and ground school on navigation, meteorology and the likes; and then moved on to an Elementary Flying Training School at Taieri, Bell Block, Whenuapai, Ashburton or Harewood. Its taken me a while but I've managed to dig out his logbooks. Heres some details: JONES Bryce Drummond NZ413082. Yes he was at No3EFTS Harewood from July to August 1941, so I'm guessing was at Levin early '41? Just to waffle on a bit if anyone's interested...He moved onto Wigram, then 6SFTS Staverton (?), Desford, Wolverhampton, training pilots on DH82's... then Perth and Banff. Briefly trained on Wellingtons at No11 OTU Oakley (I think), then ended up at Wytton for conversion to Mosquito XX. September 1944 saw him at 608 Sqn until December '44 flying both the XX and XXV variants. Jan '45 he was on 162 Sqn based at Bourn (again unsure of spelling?) where he was in the PFF until April 1945. His last flight (his 55th op) was 22 march 1945. Ended up as Flt/Lt with a DFC and some other gongs.. I've actually learnt more about what he did from these forums and his logbooks than what he told us as kids. Whew! So thats our bit of history. Wonder if it ties in with anybody elses here? Cheers! |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 12, 2011 0:23:48 GMT 12
Can someone please supply the definitive date that the Initial Training Wings moved from Levin to Rotorua?
John Ross's Official History states February 1942.
Peter at the beginning of the thread says December 1941.
I have from another source as August 1942.
Can someone provide an accurate date please?
|
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Sept 12, 2011 11:26:15 GMT 12
Can someone please supply the definitive date that the Initial Training Wings moved from Levin to Rotorua? John Ross's Official History states February 1942. Peter at the beginning of the thread says December 1941. I have from another source as August 1942. Can someone provide an accurate date please? ITW definitely opened at Rotorua in Feb 1942. Those already undertaking their courses at Levin transferred to Rotorua over the weekend of 21/22 Feb 42. On 25 Feb a good number of airmen u/t were also enlisted at Rotorua on that date to commence a WOpAG or air observer course. Similarly, another group enlisted there on 7 Mar 42 to commence a pilots course. Note that it was a Wing (not Wings). Errol |
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Sept 12, 2011 15:21:37 GMT 12
"the ITW moved from Levin - Rotorua" WHY  ? Just seems a wast of manpower, money and time don't it - or is it just me? |
|
