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Post by snafu on Jan 8, 2023 14:45:20 GMT 12
NZ's VIP's are not actually very important, in fact most are completely unimportant and their media entourage are pointless, so I would not use the tiny role of VIP hauling as a big criteria over the other actual useful military roles the aircraft will need to fulfil. Hence the PPP and aircraft sharing deal with ANZ KC30A minus the air refueling as it's not a requirement for ANZ but airfreight would be. That would leave a RNZAF fleet of C130-30J and either A400m or C2 kawasaki in stratgic role being able to handle outsizes loads when needed I agree about the genral dogs' bodies (MP) of government in regard to VIP TPT but do not have a problem with a VIP plane for the PM and its necessary minows needed to travel with them even if it's just a something like a leased Bombardier Global 7500 a majority of the RAAF VIP is leased The idea of PPP with ANZ was that there was no Initial cost to NZG and the funds to be used on a dedicated strategic lifter for RNZAF |
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Post by machina on Jan 8, 2023 17:04:32 GMT 12
Am I reading that right, an Air New Zealand KC-30? Not sure how realistic that is.
A-400 can do AAR if required. The PM can catch a boat, agree with Dave that VIP should not be a big factor in the platform decision.
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Post by gibbo on Jan 8, 2023 20:34:46 GMT 12
Am I reading that right, an Air New Zealand KC-30? Not sure how realistic that is. A-400 can do AAR if required. The PM can catch a boat, agree with Dave that VIP should not be a big factor in the platform decision. If an arrangement can be made with AirNZ then why not, but of course VIP is not the bulk of the B757's passenger work... B757 has been doing a few flights 2022 to the UK with the Ukraine training teams... not sure I'd like to spend that long in the back of an airlifter. |
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Post by machina on Jan 8, 2023 21:37:27 GMT 12
Am I reading that right, an Air New Zealand KC-30? Not sure how realistic that is. A-400 can do AAR if required. The PM can catch a boat, agree with Dave that VIP should not be a big factor in the platform decision. If an arrangement can be made with AirNZ then why not, but of course VIP is not the bulk of the B757's passenger work... B757 has been doing a few flights 2022 to the UK with the Ukraine training teams... not sure I'd like to spend that long in the back of an airlifter. I may have misunderstood you, are you talking an arrangement just to facilitate VIP? |
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Post by snafu on Jan 8, 2023 22:44:34 GMT 12
If an arrangement can be made with AirNZ then why not, but of course VIP is not the bulk of the B757's passenger work... B757 has been doing a few flights 2022 to the UK with the Ukraine training teams... not sure I'd like to spend that long in the back of an airlifter. I may have misunderstood you, are you talking an arrangement just to facilitate VIP? Nope the idea of PPP ANZ is that the aircraft is contracted to NZDF for certain amount of time of the year for whatever its needs VIP troop freight whatever the remaining period is used by ANZ for low pax transport plus freight. funds that otherwise would have gone to 757 replacements can go to a strategic lifter like A400 or C2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTanker_ServicesGives an overview on how it works in the UK |
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Post by machina on Jan 8, 2023 23:36:03 GMT 12
I may have misunderstood you, are you talking an arrangement just to facilitate VIP? Nope the idea of PPP ANZ is that the aircraft is contracted to NZDF for certain amount of time of the year for whatever its needs VIP troop freight whatever the remaining period is used by ANZ for low pax transport plus freight. funds that otherwise would have gone to 757 replacements can go to a strategic lifter like A400 or C2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTanker_ServicesGives an overview on how it works in the UK Thanks. When I read ANZ KC-30 in one of your previous posts it threw me a bit. If the 757s were replaced with the A400 would this option be necessary though? |
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Post by snafu on Jan 9, 2023 16:06:50 GMT 12
Nope the idea of PPP ANZ is that the aircraft is contracted to NZDF for certain amount of time of the year for whatever its needs VIP troop freight whatever the remaining period is used by ANZ for low pax transport plus freight. funds that otherwise would have gone to 757 replacements can go to a strategic lifter like A400 or C2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTanker_ServicesGives an overview on how it works in the UK Thanks. When I read ANZ KC-30 in one of your previous posts it threw me a bit. If the 757s were replaced with the A400 would this option be necessary though? This all depends on how much freight Air New Zealand moves to make it worthwhile for them I guess Would you want your troops flying long distance in the back of a A400. I have been in a C130 from Sydney to Townsville that was long enough for me Even though I loathe the media fly on the RAAF KC30A but its most likely a necessary evil after all it was one of the prime motivations in converting a plane to VIP because the media were killed when in 2007 a Garuda airline in Yogyakarta who were travelling to the city as part of a delegation covering a visit by the then-foreign minister Alexander Downer. Whilst I would like to see RNZAF have both types of airfraft for stratgic lift a Public Private Partnerdhip with 3x KC30 and 3xA400M a PPPdeal between NZG/ANZ with KC30A gives options to NZG in times of emergency they can order them to be placed within RNZAF control full time if needed just being plumbed with the AAR kit would give NZg future options alone If you feel KC30A is to big I came across this Boeing 737-700 Combi you could make a slide in out VIP module where freight normally would sit simpleflying.com/boeing-737-700-combi-aircraft/ |
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Post by machina on Jan 9, 2023 17:13:27 GMT 12
Thanks. When I read ANZ KC-30 in one of your previous posts it threw me a bit. If the 757s were replaced with the A400 would this option be necessary though? This all depends on how much freight Air New Zealand moves to make it worthwhile for them I guess Would you want your troops flying long distance in the back of a A400. I have been in a C130 from Sydney to Townsville that was long enough for me Even though I loathe the media fly on the RAAF KC30A but its most likely a necessary evil after all it was one of the prime motivations in converting a plane to VIP because the media were killed when in 2007 a Garuda airline in Yogyakarta who were travelling to the city as part of a delegation covering a visit by the then-foreign minister Alexander Downer. Whilst I would like to see RNZAF have both types of airfraft for stratgic lift a Public Private Partnerdhip with 3x KC30 and 3xA400M a PPPdeal between NZG/ANZ with KC30A gives options to NZG in times of emergency they can order them to be placed within RNZAF control full time if needed just being plumbed with the AAR kit would give NZg future options alone If you feel KC30A is to big I came across this Boeing 737-700 Combi you could make a slide in out VIP module where freight normally would sit simpleflying.com/boeing-737-700-combi-aircraft/Okay, thanks again for clarifying. I think that any airliner type platform should be ruled out as replacement for the 757s, and the PPP idea sounds good for when needed as you say. I would only say 4 no. A400s though  |
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Post by beagle on Jan 11, 2023 11:53:31 GMT 12
the nz govt owns 52% of Air New Zealand, thats us the tax payer. They have a qty od B777-200's sitting in the desert doing nothing that could be brought back to life. enough pax room up top for permanent vip kit and pax, plus space underneath for more freight than a C130 or B757 can carry.
Also way longer range so not over night stops anywhere etc.
Or if you going down the other road of dedicated freight, then why not C17. Ok no more in production, My Key really stuffed that up and we should ahve got 2 but the USAF has lots parked up with deferred maintenence. we could offer to do the role of all ice flights leaving them with frames that can be used for more important roles. Plus would have to have crews sitting here for weeks or longer.
Just my 20 cents worth.
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Post by snafu on Jan 11, 2023 20:17:45 GMT 12
the nz govt owns 52% of Air New Zealand, thats us the tax payer. They have a qty od B777-200's sitting in the desert doing nothing that could be brought back to life. enough pax room up top for permanent vip kit and pax, plus space underneath for more freight than a C130 or B757 can carry. Also way longer range so not over night stops anywhere etc. Or if you going down the other road of dedicated freight, then why not C17. Ok no more in production, My Key really stuffed that up and we should ahve got 2 but the USAF has lots parked up with deferred maintenence. we could offer to do the role of all ice flights leaving them with frames that can be used for more important roles. Plus would have to have crews sitting here for weeks or longer. Just my 20 cents worth. Well in reality there is your VIP/ Strategic lift taken care of, seems like they do a far bit of cargo freight too www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2022/02/air-new-zealand-boeing-777-300-zk-okq-rescued-from-the-desert-returning-to-service.htmlaccording to wiki there are 3x 777-300 sitting in storage already with the lie flat beds in bussiness class Thats not a bad idea in regard to C17. What is USAF plans for them? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 11, 2023 20:37:29 GMT 12
I have heard those Air New Zealand Boeings that went into storage in the USA were not well cared for and are in a bad state. Not sure if it is true.
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Post by snafu on Jan 11, 2023 20:45:38 GMT 12
I have heard those Air New Zealand Boeings that went into storage in the USA were not well cared for and are in a bad state. Not sure if it is true.  |
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Post by beagle on Jan 11, 2023 21:33:54 GMT 12
the nz govt owns 52% of Air New Zealand, thats us the tax payer. They have a qty od B777-200's sitting in the desert doing nothing that could be brought back to life. enough pax room up top for permanent vip kit and pax, plus space underneath for more freight than a C130 or B757 can carry. Also way longer range so not over night stops anywhere etc. Or if you going down the other road of dedicated freight, then why not C17. Ok no more in production, My Key really stuffed that up and we should ahve got 2 but the USAF has lots parked up with deferred maintenence. we could offer to do the role of all ice flights leaving them with frames that can be used for more important roles. Plus would have to have crews sitting here for weeks or longer. Just my 20 cents worth. Well in reality there is your VIP/ Strategic lift taken care of, seems like they do a far bit of cargo freight too www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2022/02/air-new-zealand-boeing-777-300-zk-okq-rescued-from-the-desert-returning-to-service.htmlaccording to wiki there are 3x 777-300 sitting in storage already with the lie flat beds in bussiness class Thats not a bad idea in regard to C17. What is USAF plans for them? Not sure, this was a few years back I heard this. I dare say they would be just sittingt here awaiting their turn and all others that come for deep maintenence would be put at the back of the que. Only thing with B777-200 was the limited airfields it could land into, depending on weight, and also undercarriage footprint landing down south. But thats what we would use C17 for if we had any. |
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Post by aeromuzz on Jan 12, 2023 8:46:38 GMT 12
There is a big problem with any 777 plan, the 777-200's have all gone from the NZ register which suggests they have either been returned to the leaser or sold.
All of the 777-300's have been re-activated or are being re-activated so won't be available for a few years at least.
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Post by snafu on Feb 7, 2023 11:01:16 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 7, 2023 11:13:15 GMT 12
but at the same time it reduces the RNZAF capabilty Not really in terms of aerial capability, as it would not have been flying for a year anyway had it gone into the maintenance cycle. So either way they'd have had four aircraft on the line and the crews to fly them. |
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Post by snafu on Feb 7, 2023 11:36:27 GMT 12
but at the same time it reduces the RNZAF capabilty Not really in terms of aerial capability, as it would not have been flying for a year anyway had it gone into the maintenance cycle. So either way they'd have had four aircraft on the line and the crews to fly them. While I agree was going to be a planned reduction. but when is the next H model due for its deep maintenace cycle, I assume thet will do the same. The way the article reads to me is the J won't be on kiwi soil once that aircraft came out of maintence. instead of being one aircraft done you might be two down in 12 months' time. Also completing it deep maintence cycle it could be on sold for a higher price to other still using the H model If I remember correctly thats what happened to the RAAF H model some went through and gifted to Indonesia whilst they also bought the remaining aircraft and put them the deep maintenace australianaviation.com.au/2011/11/c-130s-an-aussie-gift-to-indonesia/australianaviation.com.au/2012/08/indonesia-to-buy-six-raaf-c-130hs/By the way what is happening with the H are they being sold for parts or part of a trade in deal? |
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Post by ErrolC on Feb 7, 2023 12:28:26 GMT 12
but at the same time it reduces the RNZAF capabilty Not really in terms of aerial capability, as it would not have been flying for a year anyway had it gone into the maintenance cycle. So either way they'd have had four aircraft on the line and the crews to fly them. Less the aircrew and groundcrew that will be training for the J's in any case during the period between a year from now and the J's becoming available. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 7, 2023 12:33:23 GMT 12
Again, they'd have been doing that regardless had there been five or four aircraft in service.
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Post by alanster on Feb 7, 2023 12:34:05 GMT 12
Just picking up on some posts above:
1. Agree with PPP-type deal with AirNZ as a cost-effective strategic airlift / VIP option.
2. I also think we do need an MRTT tanker to refuel the P8s over long distances. The distances that the RNZAF has to get to are ridiculously massive for a small airforce. The NZ EEZ is enormous.
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