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Post by meo4 on May 21, 2012 6:28:48 GMT 12
As for the fate of main AGM armament on the SH2G(A). Seahawk Missile Integration AIR 9000 Phase 3E The project commissioned a study to examine the incorporation of the Penguin missile on the Seahawk platform. Due to the high technical risk of the integration identified in the report, the project was held in abeyance until closed in March 2008 following the decision to dispose of Penguin missile stocks. www.defence.gov.au/budget/07-08/dar/vol2/ch3_01_o11_07_closed.htm |
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Post by Calum on May 21, 2012 11:31:54 GMT 12
Not really that simple. You can hardly call the digital AFCS a FFF replacement for the old analog system. It's clearly doesn't fit the definition of form fit or function. Plus you have to consider the CRE (configuration Role and environment that the aircraft it being operated in. In this case the 2nd pilot is now a TACCO whose primary function it operating the sensors/weapons, not as in every other operator, where the 2nd front seater is just another driver. Maybe thats why the helo doesnt worry the RNZN/RNZAF, the current SH2G is already flown with just one pilot, the other guy in front is the TACCO and a crewman in the back. That still ignores the fact that the AFCS and weight of the aircraft is still different. |
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Post by Calum on May 21, 2012 11:32:17 GMT 12
From www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/kaman-confident-securing-future-ex-australian-seas/Kaman Helicopters is confident of securing contract award for 11 Seasprite helicopters by the end of the year, following New Zealand government interest in the refurbished aircraft. A spokesman for the company said Kaman was in discussions with several nations, including New Zealand, and the aircraft need only to be reactivated to be delivered, although any modifications would of course delay that. 'The airframes have been zero timed and would therefore have the standard 10,000 hours service life as per a new manufactured airframe. This was determined by a NAVAIR approved full fatigue test to 20,000 hours. If any nation did reach 10,000 hours, the justification is already there for a SLEP [service life extension programme],' the spokesman said. The package also includes a full motion simulator and spares, which are available for immediate delivery. Des Ashton, Deputy Secretary of Defence at New Zealand's Ministry of Defence (MoD) acquisition division, told Shephard that any delivery schedule would be established as part of the negotiation process but was not likely to commence until at least a year after any government approval. 'I must stress that at this stage the New Zealand government has authorised the Ministry of Defence to enter negotiations with Kaman but no investment decisions have been made by the government at this time,' Ashton said. 'The delivery schedule would depend on the degree of modification that is required to meet New Zealand requirements (e.g. Maverick replacing Penguin). New Zealand is looking at the 11 aircraft, which were rejected by Australia in 2008 following recurring integration and airworthiness issues, as a possible replacement for its existing fleet of five SH-2G Seasprites. Ashton confirmed that the aircraft were expected to have a 10,000 hour life after being 'zero-lifed' by Kaman through a refurbishment and modification programme between 2003 and 2005. The 11 aircraft only have ‘delivery mileage’ of around 225 hours per aircraft on average. New Zealand is unlikely to press all 11 into service and some aircraft will be kept for spare parts or as attrition replacements. Ashton said a review of airworthiness had been carried out by independent experts Marinvent Corporation and New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) and MoD teams. 'This includes an assessment of the work carried out on the aircraft and systems by Kaman subsequent to the cancellation of the Australian programme taking into account New Zealand's operation requirements. Further work is continuing on aspects such as qualification and certification,' he stated. A 'gateway' review of the project has also been carried by an independent team of experts sourced from the public and private sectors in New Zealand and overseas. However, the project has attracted the ire of opposition party Labour, whose defence spokesman Iain Lees-Galloway said that the NZDF deserves better than 'cheap cast-offs that the current owner is desperately trying to get rid of.' 'The Australian Seasprites are an internationally notorious example of defence procurement gone horribly wrong after attempts to build bespoke capability from scratch resulted in massive cost blow outs for the Australian Defence Force,' Lees-Galloway said in a statement. 'The last thing we need is to find we have more defence equipment that no one can help us with if it breaks down.' |
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Post by richard1098 on May 21, 2012 19:43:11 GMT 12
'This includes an assessment of the work carried out on the aircraft and systems by Kaman subsequent to the cancellation of the Australian programme taking into account New Zealand's operation requirements. Does that mean the RNZN only anticipates using the SH-2G(I) in a low threat environment? |
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Post by meo4 on May 21, 2012 21:23:06 GMT 12
'This includes an assessment of the work carried out on the aircraft and systems by Kaman subsequent to the cancellation of the Australian programme taking into account New Zealand's operation requirements. Does that mean the RNZN only anticipates using the SH-2G(I) in a low threat environment? Seasprites combined with Anzac frigates are the only NZDF asset capable of full spectrum of operations from constabulary to combat operations. Bersama Lima 2011 is an example of utilisation of the seasprite. "They have launched their Seasprite helicopter to stage "mock attacks" with Maverick missiles." i.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/5881870/NZ-forces-war-gaming-in-South-China-SeasIt's a bit rich of Labour party disscusing defence procurement after the previous balls ups Project protector remediation ,c130LEP etc. |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2012 12:17:40 GMT 12
Yep it is pretty rich of the Labour Party, but I think that was more to do with Uncle Helen & its cohorts. I hear rumours Uncle Helen still trying to control party from New York. I think the peacnik Uncle Helen faction in the party (Goff et al) has lost ground now & hopefully will disappear into the dregs of history. The 1999 - 2008 Uncle helen govt did tremendous damage to NZDF especially RNZAF. However I will admit that I do like the NH90 and A109 buy. But the P3 upgrade they did taking away sub fighting capability and the C130 LEP was is just a waste of good money. $270 odd million that could have gone in to C130Js and whilst Uncle Helen was in charge a good offer was made but it wasn't having anything to do with US arms. NZDF and country paying for Uncle Helens & Goffs et al anti US and Australia stance.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2012 12:31:05 GMT 12
'This includes an assessment of the work carried out on the aircraft and systems by Kaman subsequent to the cancellation of the Australian programme taking into account New Zealand's operation requirements. Does that mean the RNZN only anticipates using the SH-2G(I) in a low threat environment? From my reading of the literature the NZDF & MinDEF negotiation team have certain boxes that have to be ticked, goals that the SH2(I) must achieve and criteria met before any deal is signed. There are escape mechanisms in the proceedure so methinks that they are being very careful. I would think that the threat environment would be high up on the list and the aircrafts self defence capabilities would be be fairly critical. There is a spares package with this buy plus the simulator and the ability to cannibalise say two aircraft would solve a lot of the issues around an orphan aircraft and Kamans customer service - or lack of it. Lets be honest, NZDF isn't going to fly all 11 aircraft plus the current Seasprites. We have seen a trend in the recent helo buys of buying a frame for cannibalisation so I would suggest this will happen with this buy if it goes ahead. |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2012 16:40:43 GMT 12
But the P3 upgrade they did taking away sub fighting capability The upgrade didn't take away the sub fighting capability, it just didn't update it. Ok I stand corrected. Thanks. |
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Post by Calum on May 23, 2012 17:12:57 GMT 12
There is a spares package with this buy plus the simulator and the ability to cannibalise say two aircraft would solve a lot of the issues around an orphan aircraft and Kamans customer service - or lack of it. Lets be honest, NZDF isn't going to fly all 11 aircraft plus the current Seasprites. We have seen a trend in the recent helo buys of buying a frame for cannibalisation so I would suggest this will happen with this buy if it goes ahead. Assuming everything worked out I'd buy all 11, fly 6. keep the other 5 for spares. |
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Post by nige on May 23, 2012 18:14:09 GMT 12
If the deal goes ahead - keep one at Kaman US for ongoing development & testing.
Eg, a page back I queried an upgrade to Hellfire (for neutralising FIAC and patrol boats in the littorals). Kaman has apparently integrated Hellfire into the SH-2G (accoring to various naval technology type websites), but whether the NZ and I models have the associated targeting sensors I don't know, but a development Seasprite in the US would allow for such testing.
In fact that's probably a relatively easy example (seeing Kaman have already done the work, apparently) but should the NZDF require further mods done in the future for other sensors and systems, then seeing NZ will be likely funding these developments (seeing there are no longer any other large Seasprite operators anymore - NZ will probably indeed have to wear these development costs) then having one stateside should be of great benefit. Also to test software updates etc.
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Post by beagle on May 23, 2012 18:52:39 GMT 12
Haven't we got any very well trained and expert avionics people, even civillians that could do the mods here.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2012 21:51:24 GMT 12
If the deal goes ahead - keep one at Kaman US for ongoing development & testing. Eg, a page back I queried an upgrade to Hellfire (for neutralising FIAC and patrol boats in the littorals). Kaman has apparently integrated Hellfire into the SH-2G (accoring to various naval technology type websites), but whether the NZ and I models have the associated targeting sensors I don't know, but a development Seasprite in the US would allow for such testing. In fact that's probably a relatively easy example (seeing Kaman have already done the work, apparently) but should the NZDF require further mods done in the future for other sensors and systems, then seeing NZ will be likely funding these developments (seeing there are no longer any other large Seasprite operators anymore - NZ will probably indeed have to wear these development costs) then having one stateside should be of great benefit. Also to test software updates etc. Why should we do that when we have people in NZ who are just as qualified. Like Beagle says we have people here who could do that and put that test airframe down at Woodbourne with Safe Air. Beauty about software & electronics is that it's not airframe specific so we could have spinoffs. Wouldn't the money be better spent in NZ rather than the US? Safe Air aren't exactly foreign to this type of work because they partner up with L3 over the LEP and I think they've done some of the P3K2 work as well. |
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Post by nige on May 23, 2012 22:17:22 GMT 12
Good point about Safe Air's expertise, who have sub contracted back to Kaman before.
Just saying the above because it's not unusual to have a spare with the manufacturer eg pretty sure the RAAF have a F/A-18F with Boeing and NZ Army had a LAVIII with General Dynamics for a period.
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Post by meo4 on May 23, 2012 22:53:06 GMT 12
The upgrade didn't take away the sub fighting capability, it just didn't update it. Ok I stand corrected. Thanks. I'm sure possibility of underwater ISR upgrade is on cards for P3K2 in defence white paper. Could replace mad with AN/ASQ508 Which standard MAD on most allied ASW platforms Including Ozzie Seahawks and the AN/UYS-503 light weight acoustic processor system which is fitted to US Navy SH2Gs AP3C s frigates. Im sure it would get plenty of political mud as per project sirirus at least with the JATF it can be justified as force protection self defence measure for task force. Example would be the Indonesian sub that lerked during the Timor landings. www.cae.com/en/military/_pdf/datasheet.magnetic.anomaly.detection.system.pdf |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2012 23:03:24 GMT 12
Good point about Safe Air's expertise, who have sub contracted back to Kaman before. Just saying the above because it's not unusual to have a spare with the manufacturer eg pretty sure the RAAF have a F/A-18F with Boeing and NZ Army had a LAVIII with General Dynamics for a period. The RAAF do have a Boeing F/A 18F with Boeing in the US. I agree it's the norm but considering the past issues we've had with Kaman I just think if we could we'd be better off doing any ongoing development here. Also we would own the IP rights. |
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Post by Calum on May 24, 2012 9:47:34 GMT 12
If the deal goes ahead - keep one at Kaman US for ongoing development & testing. Eg, a page back I queried an upgrade to Hellfire (for neutralising FIAC and patrol boats in the littorals). Kaman has apparently integrated Hellfire into the SH-2G (accoring to various naval technology type websites), but whether the NZ and I models have the associated targeting sensors I don't know, but a development Seasprite in the US would allow for such testing. In fact that's probably a relatively easy example (seeing Kaman have already done the work, apparently) but should the NZDF require further mods done in the future for other sensors and systems, then seeing NZ will be likely funding these developments (seeing there are no longer any other large Seasprite operators anymore - NZ will probably indeed have to wear these development costs) then having one stateside should be of great benefit. Also to test software updates etc. Why should we do that when we have people in NZ who are just as qualified. Like Beagle says we have people here who could do that and put that test airframe down at Woodbourne with Safe Air. Beauty about software & electronics is that it's not airframe specific so we could have spinoffs. Wouldn't the money be better spent in NZ rather than the US? Safe Air aren't exactly foreign to this type of work because they partner up with L3 over the LEP and I think they've done some of the P3K2 work as well. Do we? Do does the Safe or the RNZAF have access to the software code, various airframe data? Do we have experts in the software code required to intergrate with the current ITAS (noting that it took 10 + years to get working)? I doubt he RNZAF does. Does Safe Air, again I’d be surprised if it does. Companies don’ keep these guys around unless there is a constant stream of work for them. Does the RNZAF have people that can do the OT&E required? I know they got the RAN (AMAFTU) to develop the ship/helicopter operating limits (SHOL’s) for the SH-2G(NZ). First rule of engineering is “don’t reinvent the wheel”. If Kaman has already done this and certified it (Assuming they have) then the cheapest and least risky solution is to purchase the “modification”. I read a recent article in Defence Helicopter Magazine that stated the RNZAF are contracting a Australian firm to do more ship/helicopter integration work in the next few years. I assume for the NH-90/A-109 The airworthiness reg’s , these days are a lot stricter. This makes the “she’ll be right approach” somewhat more difficult these days. All that said, I’m sure if the capability exists (or can be developed) and it’s value for money then it would be an option. |
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Post by skyhawkdon on May 24, 2012 15:33:12 GMT 12
If the deal goes ahead we will get the software source code and be able to do ALL our own software mods, including intergrating the AGM-65G. There is already a NZ company doing this sort of work for the upgraded P-3's Avionics. They have the expertise and skills to also do this for the Seasprites.
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Post by htbrst on Jun 23, 2012 7:13:04 GMT 12
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Post by meo4 on Jun 23, 2012 13:52:57 GMT 12
Didn't know we had 3 Anzac frigates assume article refering to Te Mana Te Kaha and Canterbury.
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Post by ngatimozart on Jun 23, 2012 15:05:20 GMT 12
What makes this interesting is the UPI story states that the SH2G(I): "These helicopters would significantly enhance New Zealand's vertical lift capabilities with exceptional performance and low operating costs. Kaman continues to support the ministry's objective of extending the naval helicopter capability through 2025." So as opined elswhere I lurk this could mean that this buy is seen as an interim measure whilst the NZG decides upon an eventual replacement. Also stated at the same place is that the Aussie Govt gets half of the deal which is around NZ$230 million so its a real steal for NZDF. NZ$135 million is not much of a return on AU$900 million investment.  Read more: www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2012/06/22/Kaman-in-New-Zealand-talks-for-helos/UPI-99731340361000/#ixzz1ya7lGomM |
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