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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 19, 2013 20:56:50 GMT 12
Then Labour/Greens wil get in power and cancel it... First ones here in 2014. Next election Nov 2014 so be to late for them to do a Uncle helen - he says hopefully. ;D What happens with the current SH2G(NZ) models? Are they being 'traded in' on the new models? Don't know. On the DT forum someone suggested that they be used for training which could be an option. Cannabilise two to fly three as training aircraft. Not silly and that reduces time on the Is. This is a good move and adding a proper anti-ship missile to the NZDF inventory is long overdue. I wonder if they will be modified to also fire the Maverick? Also some one on DT asked about integrating the existing AGM 65 Maverick missile with the new system. Something between the AGM119 Penguin and the MAG58. But if that isn't possible then we lose versatility of being able to use Maverick against land targets. Penguin is a big step up at a 25 nautical mile range against Mavericks 11 nautical mile. It is also supersonic reaching Mach 1.2. The USN is at present having a sales drive on refurbished Sikorsky SH60Fs that it is retiring as it replaces them with MH60R/Ss. The US Army use the MH60L Direct Action Penetrator (DAP) operated by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. This data for the DAP: MH-60L - Equipment The MH-60L DAP is fitted with an AN/AAQ-16D AESOP FLIR which incorporates a laser designator which can paint targets for the AGM-114 missiles. MH-60L DAP - Specifications Crew 4 - Pilot, Co-pilot & 2 door gunners Engines 2 Two General Electric T700-GE-701C engines Dimensions L - 17.1m W (rotorspan) - 14.1m H - 4.4m Weights 11,516 lbs (empty) 22,000 lbs (max loadout) Max Speed 294 kph Range 445 nautical miles Armament Various combinations of : M230 30mm cannon (1100 rounds) @ 625 rounds per minute M261 FFAR 2.75" 19-rocket pods. AGM-114 Hellfire anti-tank missiles GAU 19/A .50 gatling gun M134 7.62mm miniguns AIM-92 ATAS (air-to-air Stinger) Avionics AN/AAQ-16D AESOP FLIR AN/APQ-174B Terrain Following Radar AN/ARN-148 Omega/VLF navigation M-130 chaff/flare dispensers AN/ALQ-144 IR jammer Radar / Laser warning receivers Source: nightstalkers.americanspecialops.com/helicopters/mh-60.php My thought is, would it be viable for NZDF to acquire say six refurbished SH60Fs and fit it with a DAP type system? The DAP is bolt on so my thought is that when it isn't being used the helos can be used as utility aircraft. They are already marinised, the DAP will fit, they will be able to operate off Canterbury and I presume the frigates. This would give us a flingwing CAS that is marinised & amphibious. Thoughts. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 21:36:29 GMT 12
Would it be wise to use the old Seasprites as a training platform though? Considering the cockpits and systems of the two aircraft are quite different, from what I read. I thought that training on the new Seasprites would give you the needed experience on the new systems? Just my thoughts  |
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 20, 2013 9:56:27 GMT 12
Article in the Hartford Courant on the buy with seven photos. Looks like an FLIR or optics turret on nose. Wonder what is with the 11th helo? |
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Post by Calum on Apr 20, 2013 10:23:51 GMT 12
Then Labour/Greens wil get in power and cancel it... First ones here in 2014. Next election Nov 2014 so be to late for them to do a Uncle helen - he says hopefully. ;D Don't know. On the DT forum someone suggested that they be used for training which could be an option. Cannabilise two to fly three as training aircraft. Not silly and that reduces time on the Is. This is a good move and adding a proper anti-ship missile to the NZDF inventory is long overdue. I wonder if they will be modified to also fire the Maverick? Also some one on DT asked about integrating the existing AGM 65 Maverick missile with the new system. Something between the AGM119 Penguin and the MAG58. But if that isn't possible then we lose versatility of being able to use Maverick against land targets. Penguin is a big step up at a 25 nautical mile range against Mavericks 11 nautical mile. It is also supersonic reaching Mach 1.2. The USN is at present having a sales drive on refurbished Sikorsky SH60Fs that it is retiring as it replaces them with MH60R/Ss. The US Army use the MH60L Direct Action Penetrator (DAP) operated by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. This data for the DAP: MH-60L - Equipment The MH-60L DAP is fitted with an AN/AAQ-16D AESOP FLIR which incorporates a laser designator which can paint targets for the AGM-114 missiles. MH-60L DAP - Specifications Crew 4 - Pilot, Co-pilot & 2 door gunners Engines 2 Two General Electric T700-GE-701C engines Dimensions L - 17.1m W (rotorspan) - 14.1m H - 4.4m Weights 11,516 lbs (empty) 22,000 lbs (max loadout) Max Speed 294 kph Range 445 nautical miles Armament Various combinations of : M230 30mm cannon (1100 rounds) @ 625 rounds per minute M261 FFAR 2.75" 19-rocket pods. AGM-114 Hellfire anti-tank missiles GAU 19/A .50 gatling gun M134 7.62mm miniguns AIM-92 ATAS (air-to-air Stinger) Avionics AN/AAQ-16D AESOP FLIR AN/APQ-174B Terrain Following Radar AN/ARN-148 Omega/VLF navigation M-130 chaff/flare dispensers AN/ALQ-144 IR jammer Radar / Laser warning receivers Source: nightstalkers.americanspecialops.com/helicopters/mh-60.php My thought is, would it be viable for NZDF to acquire say six refurbished SH60Fs and fit it with a DAP type system? The DAP is bolt on so my thought is that when it isn't being used the helos can be used as utility aircraft. They are already marinised, the DAP will fit, they will be able to operate off Canterbury and I presume the frigates. This would give us a flingwing CAS that is marinised & amphibious. Thoughts. Paul In the perfect world the RNZN would have got MH-60R's or NFH-90's The Seasprite, even these "new" ones is IMHO the NZDF's second choice. Operating a second Naval helicopter of the type you suggest is way beyond the budget of the RNZN. I do agree with the view however that a weapons system between the Mag 58 and Penguin is needed (and the maverick isn't it). If you look at the USN they have dispensed with the Penguin on the MH-60R, and gone with Hellfire and 0.50 Cal's. These are good choices for the threats the maritime helicopters are dealing with today. I'd still hate to go up against any decent warship with a Penguin in any helicopter. The Helicopter is better of doing OTH targeting for warships with harpoons (but IIRC that is another weapons system the RNZN lack?) |
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 20, 2013 10:44:15 GMT 12
Thanks Calum. Yes it was suggested on DT that the RNZN replace the MAG58 with the M2 Browning .50 cal which I am in total agreement with. It would take care of most things like dhowls that the pirates use etc. Maybe even some Hellfires. But they are expensive. Unguided 70mm rockets would be handy though.
The RNZN doesn't have any Surface to Surface Missiles - unless you count the dildo on the end of the gun lin ;D Back when I was in RNZAF, just before I got out in 82 they were going to equip the P3s to take the Harpoons. Don't know if that ever happened. I suppose if push come to shove regarding ASW weapons for the FFHs we could always chain blocks of concrete to politicians and drop them on enemy subs ;D Would solve two problems at once and it would be cheap. Only problem I sea is would be placating Tangaroa the atua of the oceans. Mightn't be impressed with us dumping a lot of pollies in his domain ;D ;D
Late EDIT: The two NZ ANZAC FFHs have two MK 32 Mod 5 Surface Vessel Torpedo Tubes fitted which can be used for launching MK 46 ASW torpedo.
Actually what I was suggesting with the DAP and the SH60Fs was not just for the RNZN. It'd be more a NZDF platform that just happens to be marinised and ship capable. I just forget to mention that. We wouldn't have to go full hog with the US Army DAP but cherry pick what suits us. Anyway it's just a suggestion.
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Post by beagle on Apr 20, 2013 11:57:45 GMT 12
from the kaman website. note the price
Kaman Announces Authorization from New Zealand for the Purchase of Ten SH-2G(I) Super Seasprite Aircraft
WELLINGTON, New Zealand--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Apr. 18, 2013-- Kaman Corp. (NYSE:KAMN) today announced that the New Zealand Cabinet has authorized the New Zealand Ministry of Defence (MoD) to enter into an approximately $120 million contract with Kaman Aerospace Corporation (Kaman) for the purchase of ten SH-2G(I) Super Seasprite aircraft, spare parts, a full mission flight simulator, and related logistics support.
The MoD and Kaman expect to execute a contract in the next few weeks. Kaman anticipates the contract will call for the aircraft to be delivered over an approximately three year period with revenue recognition beginning in 2013.
Neal J. Keating, Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer said, “We are very pleased to have reached this milestone with the Government of New Zealand. Kaman has had a longstanding relationship with the New Zealand Defence Force based on the success they have experienced flying the Kaman Super Seasprite since 2001. This success led to their interest in our SH-2G(I), the latest variant of the aircraft and one of the most technologically advanced helicopters in the world today. We expect to transition the aircraft into their fleet over the next three years and to continue to support them for many years to come. This contract represents an important step forward for Kaman and we welcome the opportunity to continue supporting the operational needs of the New Zealand Defence Force.”
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 20, 2013 14:01:15 GMT 12
Pay for the lot now and ship them straight away before the rubber band perishes on the current five ;D
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Post by meo4 on Apr 20, 2013 19:39:16 GMT 12
Thanks Calum. Yes it was suggested on DT that the RNZN replace the MAG58 with the M2 Browning .50 cal which I am in total agreement with. It would take care of most things like dhowls that the pirates use etc. Maybe even some Hellfires. But they are expensive. Unguided 70mm rockets would be handy though. The RNZN doesn't have any Surface to Surface Missiles - unless you count the dildo on the end of the gun lin ;D Back when I was in RNZAF, just before I got out in 82 they were going to equip the P3s to take the Harpoons. Don't know if that ever happened. I suppose if push come to shove regarding ASW weapons for the FFHs we could always chain blocks of concrete to politicians and drop them on enemy subs ;D Would solve two problems at once and it would be cheap. Only problem I sea is would be placating Tangaroa the atua of the oceans. Mightn't be impressed with us dumping a lot of pollies in his domain ;D ;D Late EDIT: The two NZ ANZAC FFHs have two MK 32 Mod 5 Surface Vessel Torpedo Tubes fitted which can be used for launching MK 48 ASW torpedo. Think you meant the MK46 light weight torpedo opposed to the submarine launched heavy weight Mk48 Torpedo . |
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 20, 2013 21:50:46 GMT 12
Think you meant the MK46 light weight torpedo opposed to the submarine launched heavy weight Mk48 Torpedo . My apologies. Yes it should be the Mk 46. Thank you for that. I have edited my post to correct it. Paul. |
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 20, 2013 21:56:23 GMT 12
I seem to recall END's flight deck is too small and/or not rated for the weight of a seasprite. Doubt it has decklock grid either. They can vertrep, winch and possibly Hifer from END. I know they practice the former two, but I'm not 100% if the last one is possible. Although being a ship full of fuel you'd think it would make sense. Apparently the ENDs flight deck was designed for the paraffin parrot No 1, the Wasp. The Seasprites are to large and heavy for the flight deck. |
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Post by suthg on Apr 21, 2013 9:36:15 GMT 12
.... Wonder what is with the 11th helo? Isn't that the one they take to shows and for demonstrations/trials and keep in readiness, the rest were temporarily mothballed? |
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Post by meo4 on Apr 21, 2013 18:40:41 GMT 12
Thanks Calum. Yes it was suggested on DT that the RNZN replace the MAG58 with the M2 Browning .50 cal which I am in total agreement with. It would take care of most things like dhowls that the pirates use etc. Maybe even some Hellfires. But they are expensive. Unguided 70mm rockets would be handy though. The RNZN doesn't have any Surface to Surface Missiles - unless you count the dildo on the end of the gun lin ;D Technically the RNZN don't have dedicated surface to surface missiles but the RIM7P sea sparrow can be used in an anti surface mode. Bellow is the destroyer TCG Muavenet that was struck accidentally by two sea sparrow from USS Saratoga. Just shows the danger posed to other surface ships when firing live sea sparrows.   |
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Post by richard1098 on Apr 21, 2013 20:41:19 GMT 12
I guess the IFF was set to OFF  |
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Post by vs on Apr 22, 2013 14:24:50 GMT 12
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Post by beagle on Apr 22, 2013 15:30:28 GMT 12
Well slowly on their way. The first 3 at the end of next year and then progressively all by 2016.
I would have thought that they would all have been delivered by the end of this year.
Would like to know what they have done to fix the c of g regards the penguin. Then again how often are we going to be carrying one ready to fire at a floating container that is in a shipping channel.
Just trying to find their original spec esp what IRDS head the Aussie got fitted.
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 22, 2013 15:36:16 GMT 12
I'm a lot happier now that I know they will have 3 crew. That should make things manageable.
Sent via Proboards Android App
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Post by beagle on Apr 22, 2013 15:52:26 GMT 12
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 22, 2013 20:21:22 GMT 12
I've copied this from the Kaman brochure on the SH2G: Wide array of weapons systemsThe SH-2G’s specialty is over-the-horizon operations from small ships – Super Seasprite extends the reach of the ship’s sensors and weapons by a factor of 10! Delivering beyond-the- horizon reach and keeping the ship out of harm’s way – the SH-2G is the ultimate maritime force multiplier. On-board radar, FLIR, ESM and acoustic data processor enable the SH-2G to independently exhibit a wide array of surface and submarine contact data. Fully integrated weapons allow delivery of Penguin or Maverick air-to-surface missiles, advanced lightweight ASW torpedoes, and side suppression arms such as the 7.62 or 12.7 mm general-purpose machine gun. The SH-2G is designed and certified to deliver the widest array of weapons. The SH-2G can carry two MK-46 torpedoes; two AGM-119 Penguin or two AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missiles; two MK-11 depth charges; flares for self-protection; 7.62 mm or 12.7 mm door-mounted machine guns. Engines Twin T700-GE-401 gas turbine 1,723 shp • Dimensions main rotor 44 ft/13.41 m • Height 13.5 ft/4.09 m • Length 52.5 ft/16.0 m • Gross weight 14,200 lbs • Useful load 5,070 lbs/2,296 kg • Cruise 124 kts • VNE 150 kts • HIGE 17,600 ft/5,364.4 m • Max rate of climb 2,070 fpm • Service ceiling 20,400 ft/6,217.9 m • Specific Fuel Consumption 0.464 lbs per hp/hr • Max range 540 NM • Endurance 5.3 hours • Crew 1 pilot, 1 TACCO/co-pilot, 1 sonar operator (optional), up to 8 fully armed troops • Tail rotor 8.0ft/2.43 m • Width 11.6ft/3.53 m • External Load 4,000 lbs/1,812 kg • HOGE 14,600 ft/ 4,450.1 m www.kaman.com/files/file/PDFs/Helicopter%20PDFs/Seasprite.pdf |
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Post by phil on Apr 22, 2013 20:59:29 GMT 12
8 Fully armed midgets perhaps.
Interesting they quote the .50 cal, I'd be curious to know if Kaman have an OTS mount available.
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 22, 2013 22:16:51 GMT 12
Well slowly on their way. The first 3 at the end of next year and then progressively all by 2016. I would have thought that they would all have been delivered by the end of this year. Would like to know what they have done to fix the c of g regards the penguin. Then again how often are we going to be carrying one ready to fire at a floating container that is in a shipping channel. Just trying to find their original spec esp what IRDS head the Aussie got fitted. I wonder if the Penguin issue arose with the Hands Off Computer Controlled Flight Operating System that the RAN were so keen on. I read that in that mode it could make some sudden changes to the flight profile, so maybe the Penguin CofG issues were more software related rather than physical mass related. Just a thought. 8 Fully armed midgets perhaps. Interesting they quote the .50 cal, I'd be curious to know if Kaman have an OTS mount available. I would think that they may have because I would've thought that the USN would've wanted a .50 cal mount. My own thought is that the Browning M2 .50 x 99 cal is a better option than the MAG58 7.62mm x 51. Longer reach and more hitting power. It'll keep you out of AK reach. |
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