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Post by tfly on Apr 5, 2012 19:07:49 GMT 12
Is this the best deal or should NZ opt for new NFH90's instead? Could this be another example of penny pinching now only to pay more later? Or is the SH2G(I) the 'deal of the century' with the true value being underwritten (subsidised) by Australia/Kaman?
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Post by beagle on Apr 5, 2012 19:09:50 GMT 12
no money for NFH90's
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Post by Calum on Apr 5, 2012 20:55:27 GMT 12
If you're really interested in why the RAN got rid of the Seasprite then read the following article. It is the best explanation online of the whole project and what went wrong. Although it doesn't cover all the issues the aircraft has/had. rumourcontrol.com.au/?p=95. |
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Post by beagle on Apr 5, 2012 21:05:22 GMT 12
everything has problems according to aussies
Except maybe a holden
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Post by Calum on Apr 5, 2012 21:10:52 GMT 12
everything has problems according to aussies Except maybe a holden Scoff if you will but read the report first and then tell me you think there is nothing wrong with the basic design. Especially considering you have the same basic Airworthiness system as the ADF. |
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 5, 2012 21:54:18 GMT 12
If you're really interested in why the RAN got rid of the Seasprite then read the following article. It is the best explanation online of the whole project and what went wrong. Although it doesn't cover all the issues the aircraft has/had. rumourcontrol.com.au/?p=95. Well, after reading that - there's no way I'd be wanting to get into the bloody things, no matter how good Kaman said they were!  The sad thing is, there seemed to be plenty of warning signs that things were not going well at all virtually from day one, yet it took so damn long for anyone to finally make a decision to kill the program. |
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 5, 2012 22:31:27 GMT 12
everything has problems according to aussies Except maybe a holden Scoff if you will but read the report first and then tell me you think there is nothing wrong with the basic design. Especially considering you have the same basic Airworthiness system as the ADF. So having read that, my main question is 'how many crew does the SH-2G(I) have (and if 3, does the guy in back operate sensors)'. My next question is 'do the pilots have full control movements available to them?' |
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Post by nige on Apr 5, 2012 22:48:42 GMT 12
Well I've seen on other fora that (Aussie) people involved with the SH-2G(A) programme have suggested that the issues were pretty much resolved when the Australian Govt pulled the plug (and if memory serves me correctly they may have suggested that if NZ picked them up ex-Kaman they would likely do fine).
The other thing is this (I) model may have a lesser or modified fit out than that of the original (A) model (eg negating those ITAS issues), but hey I don't claim to be an expert on this issue at all, but despite as the article states that the reasons why the Aust Govt pulled the plug were never out into the public domain I presume NZDF would have had conversations with the ADF (and presumably at Ministerial levels) to be reassured they weren't about to buy the (A) model in drag.
With the NZ govt (and NZDF) being more risk adverse than the Australian Govt/ADF (because of NZ's comparative lack of funding when purchasing systems) I guess they wouldn't be thinking about acquiring this (I) model if there was still those lingering doubts.
Time will tell I guess, my real question is it appears the funding isn't there for the MH-60R (and obviously it isn't) so is the potential SH-2G(I) purchase a bean counter compromise or is actually a good buy in the short to medium term?
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Post by nige on Apr 5, 2012 23:04:56 GMT 12
Another question, the UK Govt were apparently touting the Lynx Wildcat last year as the SH-2G(NZ) replacement, so whatever happened to that plan? Edit: not sure if link whoring is allowed here - if ok, I searched and found the link to some discussions regarding the ADF Seasprites I was thinking about above, see GF's comments #1939. www.defencetalk.com/forums/geo-strategic-defense/nzdf-general-discussion-thread-6137-130/Although there are concerns about critical parts shortages & sustainment ...  So I guess any potential (I) model purchase would be a compromise in the medium to longer term (although as Phil and Lester are indicating, at least more airframes would give options as obviously not all 11 would be needed in NZDF service at any one time)? |
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Post by Calum on Apr 6, 2012 8:30:21 GMT 12
So having read that, my main question is 'how many crew does the SH-2G(I) have (and if 3, does the guy in back operate sensors)'. My next question is 'do the pilots have full control movements available to them?' To the best of my knowledge the SH-2G(I) is just the SH-2G(A) re badged. I standing for international. So it is meant to have 2 crew. IIRC there wasn't a sensor operators console in the SH-2G(A) (I could be wrong though as it's a long time since I've seen one) The sensor operator was also the crewman so when he had to do winching he had to climb out of his seat and over to the cabin.. |
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Post by Calum on Apr 6, 2012 9:02:45 GMT 12
Well I've seen on other fora that (Aussie) people involved with the SH-2G(A) programme have suggested that the issues were pretty much resolved when the Australian Govt pulled the plug (and if memory serves me correctly they may have suggested that if NZ picked them up ex-Kaman they would likely do fine). I’ve heard the same thing from people who worked on the (I know at least 5 ex RNZAF guys who worked on the project here. One is now the Kaman Tech Rep in Egypt). What I heard was resolved was the ITAS. I don’t know if the AFCS issue was sorted out. And the Lateral CFG issues , important when you are trying to land a helicopter on a moving ship remain. The aircraft is quite top heavy (the SH-2G (NZ) has similar limitations from what I remember being told by a RAN FTE after they did the first of class trials). The other thing is this (I) model may have a lesser or modified fit out than that of the original (A) model (eg negating those ITAS issues), I doubt it, the aircraft was designed for a 2 crew operation hence the IATS and avionics setup. I don’t think it would be simple to change it for 3 crew, it’s not as simple as chucking a crewman in the a back and throwing in a console. but hey I don't claim to be an expert on this issue at all, Me either, I’m only going on what I’ve seen, or heard. This was the RAN’s attempt at a “Kahu” and it didn’t work out. NZ will inherent all the logistical issues of an orphan platform as well. The reason this thread is began is that the RNZAF is operating a platform with a small worldwide fleet hence is already having logisitical issues supporting it (I‘d heard stories of them having issues within a few years of the aircraft coming into service) but despite as the article states that the reasons why the Aust Govt pulled the plug were never out into the public domain I presume NZDF would have had conversations with the ADF (and presumably at Ministerial levels) to be reassured they weren't about to buy the (A) model in drag. I’d like to think so With the NZ govt (and NZDF) being more risk adverse than the Australian Govt/ADF (because of NZ's comparative lack of funding when purchasing systems) I guess they wouldn't be thinking about acquiring this (I) model if there was still those lingering doubts. Although I sound negative on the aircraft (and I am) the RNZAF will know a lot more about the aircraft then anyone here. I guess they think they are worth the money and are happy to accept the issues/risks the aircraft has. Time will tell I guess, my real question is it appears the funding isn't there for the MH-60R (and obviously it isn't) so is the potential SH-2G(I) purchase a bean counter compromise or is actually a good buy in the short to medium term? To my eyes it’s a compromise. They aren’t as good as a Romeo / NFH-90 but the RNZAF (if rumours are accurate) have concluded they are better than the current SH-2G(NZ) and if this page is anything to go by they are cheap asiandragoninternational.yolasite.com/aircraft.php |
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Post by beagle on Apr 6, 2012 9:36:47 GMT 12
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Post by beagle on Apr 6, 2012 9:38:23 GMT 12
Just thinking, if we did get them, we could contract the RAAF to use a few of their C17's to bring them over.
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Post by Naki on Apr 6, 2012 11:12:38 GMT 12
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Post by nige on Apr 6, 2012 11:36:00 GMT 12
Thanks Callum for your responses. The more I think about it I would have to agree with you that the SH-2G(I) would be better than the SH-2G(NZ) (eg free of corrosion issues, enough airframes to manage depolyment and servicing requirements and glass cockpit to align the Sprite with the other aircraft and helos in or entering service ... all asuming certification issues have been sorted), but yes it is a compromise compared to new generation helos with future growth paths such as MH-60R or AW159.
So I hope Defence & MoD make it clear to Govt/Treasury, that this is a medium term solution eg no more than 10, possibly 15 years of use from acquisition (and try and not flog 20-30+ years out of them)!
If 10-15 years, and if the acquisition timeframe for this is still approx 2015 (from Defence Reviews) then their replacement would align with the ANZAC Frigate replacement in the mid-2020's, which would make some sense. Mind you I wonder if acquisition will be brought forward due to the SH-2G(NZ) corrosion issues and the fact if NZ don't buy them soon then someone else might?
Alas I would have preferred the MH-60R to align with the ADF (or look at the Wildcat) come 2015, but maybe funding can't be brought forward/found so the NZDF is stuck between a rock and hard place? Eg try and keep the SH-2G(NZ)'s going and risk outputs failure ... or take up this offer from Kaman to buy the I model dirt cheap. I can't blame the NZDF & MoD going with the latter if these are the circumstances they are in!
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Post by meo4 on Apr 6, 2012 11:57:07 GMT 12
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Post by beagle on Apr 6, 2012 12:10:59 GMT 12
not sure on prices etc but if they were lokking at something along those lines, then i think they would get some NFH90's or are they gazillions each. Since we already got the TTH then we would get a decent price for the NFH  ? |
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Post by Andy Wright on Apr 6, 2012 20:42:02 GMT 12
everything has problems according to aussies Except maybe a holden Nope, Holden can't run a bath at the moment. Our fast jets aren't much of a problem.  |
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Post by phil on Apr 6, 2012 21:53:26 GMT 12
Just thinking, if we did get them, we could contract the RAAF to use a few of their C17's to bring them over. From Connecticut?? |
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Post by richard1098 on Apr 6, 2012 22:46:03 GMT 12
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?
