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Post by beagle on Apr 7, 2012 9:49:16 GMT 12
I was just referring to the comment regards the cheaper seahawk, as if you would be looking at that then size for size, you would look at the NFH over it.
Of course it would not fit in the OPV hangar, oh I just read further, they have done trials with seasprite on the Otago / wellington.
With all avionics getting smaller etc, maybe they could look at marinised A109's
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Post by Chris F on Apr 7, 2012 17:44:10 GMT 12
Some interesting stuff been discussed here.I see the reasons to buy the ex Aussies ones,more airframes..etc...
Can anyone tell me this....has the current Seasprite been reliable and a good asset(apart from corrosion which is part of life for a naval chopper)?
Also is the A109 capable of been converted to a naval chopper...would be far cheaper??
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Post by nige on Apr 7, 2012 19:45:15 GMT 12
Can anyone tell me this....has the current Seasprite been reliable and a good asset(apart from corrosion which is part of life for a naval chopper)? Hopefully you'll get some good responses from those here that worked with them. Personally I perceive them as having been a very good asset and reliable (apart from recent events coming to a head). Unlike the ADF's Seasprite experiences, the NZDF has had a "long" and generally successful experience with them and Kaman. For example we had the interim SH-2F model in the late 90's-early 2000's and I read they did well in the East Timor conflict in 1999 tracking Indonesian surface vessels. NZDF wouldn't have had that capability before (the Aussies gained that capability from the early 90's with their Seahawks). I believe the F model wasn't armed with missiles and torps (happy to be corrected by the experts on this thread) but acquired that capability with the G model, which deployed to the Middle East in the early-mid 2000's etc. Would have been a capable asset to have on deployment I would have thought. |
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Post by beagle on Apr 7, 2012 20:27:31 GMT 12
Some interesting stuff been discussed here.I see the reasons to buy the ex Aussies ones,more airframes..etc... Can anyone tell me this....has the current Seasprite been reliable and a good asset(apart from corrosion which is part of life for a naval chopper)? Also is the A109 capable of been converted to a naval chopper...would be far cheaper?? MH-68 Stingray a sused by USCG  |
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Post by Calum on Apr 7, 2012 20:37:38 GMT 12
not sure on prices etc but if they were lokking at something along those lines, then i think they would get some NFH90's or are they gazillions each. Since we already got the TTH then we would get a decent price for the NFH  ? I'm not sure the cost of NFH, but I think you'll find we'd be getting all 11 frames for the cost of just one NFH. the NH90 is pretty big, I can't see it fitting in the hangar very well, especialy on the OPVs. The Sprite is a tight fit on the flightdeck of those, surely an NH90 would be too big? The NFH will fit in an ANZAC - just. Doubt it'll fit on the OPV. The Anzac hangar, ironically, was designed to take a Seahawk. |
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Post by Calum on Apr 7, 2012 20:41:33 GMT 12
Some interesting stuff been discussed here.I see the reasons to buy the ex Aussies ones,more airframes..etc... Can anyone tell me this....has the current Seasprite been reliable and a good asset(apart from corrosion which is part of life for a naval chopper)? Also is the A109 capable of been converted to a naval chopper...would be far cheaper?? A-109 can't do ASW/ASuW so it isn't much use in those roles (which are important for a Naval helo_ |
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Post by beagle on Apr 7, 2012 20:41:40 GMT 12
I don't hink the Stingray would perform thetasks e require shipbound, but I have been wrong before...yes dear....
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
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Post by chis73 on Apr 7, 2012 22:36:54 GMT 12
As I recall, the Stingray was predominately land-based (out of Florida) in USCG service. I also think that it was only in service for a short time and has been replaced with HH-65 Dolphins (variants of the Dauphin/Panther).
With regard to the SH-2G(I) Seasprites:
The Seasprite evaluation report on the NZ Ministry of Defence website indicated that the Aussie spares pool is already being dipped into. What happens when those parts run out? Although there were some issues with airframe corrosion, the main problems seemed to be with supply of rotables & consumables (carbon fibre blades especially) and with Kaman's iron grip on intellectual property & reluctance to licence production. Having 11 Seasprites rather than 5 isn't going to solve those problems for very long.
Can anyone confirm or deny that the SH-2G(I) has 3 crew? I've haven't found anything from Kaman that indicates that it does - which leads to the assumption that it is just a rebadged SH-2G(A) still with 2 crew (and all that entails).
The SH-2G(I) has been on the market at a bargain price for 3 years now with no takers. They even tried Bulgaria. The only interest I've seen has been from Ecuador. Poland seems to be close to dumping theirs. Maybe that says something.
I'd like us to do the replacement job properly for once. My preference would be to hold out until the Lynx Wildcat enters service. I'd say 4-5 HMA1 Naval variants would suffice. We could lease Dauphins/Panthers for OPV work in the short term if required.
The Lynx Wildcat AH1 (or LAH) Army variant could also be bought in small numbers (say 4-5) for land use. I'd add a weather radar though (similar to whats on the NH90). That would give us a handy mid-sized chopper for Army, SAR & even OPV use - while streamlining logistics.
To pay for Lynx Wildcat, I'd buy secondhand vessels for the Littoral Warfare ship, sell off some LAVs & armoured LOVs, and replace Endeavour with another modified commercial tanker (sadly).
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Post by Chris F on Apr 8, 2012 12:03:37 GMT 12
Thanks guys for the comments.
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Post by meo4 on Apr 8, 2012 20:45:37 GMT 12
 There's the recently retired A109E RAN leased from Raytheon could be used for OPVs . Would probably replace /remove OPVs 25mm Bushmaster with something that's actually works like Block 1B CIWS or even cheaper rafael mini typhoon. As far as ship replacements go Secondhand Sandown Class fitted with dive bell , Decompression chamber which could also used in survey role with a towed multibeam sonar would cover littoral warfare support vessel. Endevour replacement would be commercial loyds standard tanker with space for containers and hangar flight deck for NH90 . Would also leave space and weight for later fitted CIWS and towed torpedo decoys . |
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Post by meo4 on Apr 9, 2012 11:54:33 GMT 12
Overall Seasprite SH2G(I) if with sufficent spare parts probably be the short term cost wise wise option (9 to 15 million per aircraft US). The money is tight in Naval combat force considering the impending ANZAC frigate upgrade will cost mega bucks. Includes replacing combat system,seasparrow missles ,upgrades to 5inch ,replacing torpedoes and other sensor upgrades just to maintain current capability .    |
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
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Post by chis73 on Apr 9, 2012 13:31:56 GMT 12
Here's a question for one of the Aussies on the board: were the RAN's A109s ever embarked on a ship? 723 Squadron's Squirrels certainly were (up to 1997, & Timor) but I don't know about the A109s. I think not though - only used for training deck landings in harbour? Similarly I imagine an embarked A109 in Swedish or USCG service is/was a rare thing.
We should be aiming to have an embarked helo on all OPV patrols - otherwise the OPVs are being used very inefficiently (not many ships, a huge area to cover... it takes too long to close a contact without a chopper). I think average conditions off the NZ coast are, from memory, at least sea state 4. You're probably going to need a proper naval helo to cope with that on a regular basis, and a smallish one at that to land on a pitching OPV flight deck. The lack of a search radar would be a major handicap for A109 use from our OPVs. Just due to the large area & long ranges from the ship they would need to work in. Non folding blades, not-robust enough landing gear, no deck harpoon, & a non-marinised airframe don't help either.
Another question - what's the weight margin like in an A109 with full fuel? I seem to recall seeing on a South African site that it's limited to 1 or 2 in the back in that condition.
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Post by vs on Apr 9, 2012 16:12:46 GMT 12
I don't know why they don't just cut their losses and buy a new helicopter. Bet it would be cheaper option in 10 years time!
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Post by beagle on Apr 9, 2012 17:23:22 GMT 12
Just get a second hand helicopter assault ship that can be used for Humanitarian Aid, disaster relief etc and can handle any size chopper.
The same as far as a new tanker goes too. make it multi role with a decent hangar to take up to NFH90 size for the future.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 9, 2012 17:40:37 GMT 12
Here's a question for one of the Aussies on the board: were the RAN's A109s ever embarked on a ship? 723 Squadron's Squirrels certainly were (up to 1997, & Timor) but I don't know about the A109s. I think not though - only used for training deck landings in harbour? Similarly I imagine an embarked A109 in Swedish or USCG service is/was a rare thing. We should be aiming to have an embarked helo on all OPV patrols - otherwise the OPVs are being used very inefficiently (not many ships, a huge area to cover... it takes too long to close a contact without a chopper). I think average conditions off the NZ coast are, from memory, at least sea state 4. You're probably going to need a proper naval helo to cope with that on a regular basis, and a smallish one at that to land on a pitching OPV flight deck. The lack of a search radar would be a major handicap for A109 use from our OPVs. Just due to the large area & long ranges from the ship they would need to work in. Non folding blades, not-robust enough landing gear, no deck harpoon, & a non-marinised airframe don't help either. Another question - what's the weight margin like in an A109 with full fuel? I seem to recall seeing on a South African site that it's limited to 1 or 2 in the back in that condition. I don't think the A109s ever spent any real time embarked, as I believe their main role was training observers/helicopter crew in winching, etc, and also as a way of keeping junior pilots current while they waited to get onto 816SQN. I recall speaking to a RAN pilot a few years ago, and he was saying that fatigue was becoming an issue on Squirrels that were embarked onboard the frigates, as the tailboom suffered a fair amount of whip effect during shipboard operations - something the Squirrels was never really designed for. |
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Post by meo4 on Apr 9, 2012 21:19:56 GMT 12
Prob should have got Super lyxn 10 years ago like this Malayasian example on HMNZS Te Kaha .   |
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Post by meo4 on Apr 9, 2012 21:31:47 GMT 12
I don't think the A109s ever spent any real time embarked, as I believe their main role was training observers/helicopter crew in winching, etc, and also as a way of keeping junior pilots current while they waited to get onto 816SQN. 816 squadron don't know if I would fly with tiger mascot in backseat.   |
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Post by Calum on Apr 10, 2012 15:04:16 GMT 12
No the A-109's weren't embarked on ships (not covered in the contract) they did operate with patrol boats a fair bit though.
The Squirrel can still be embarked. IIRC there was one on a ship last year
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Post by richard1098 on Apr 10, 2012 19:57:18 GMT 12
Prob should have got Super lyxn 10 years ago like this Malayasian example on HMNZS Te Kaha . But if the underlying issue is the NZ government's reluctance to adequately (realistically?) fund NZDF programs, how would choice of the Lynx have lead to a better outcome? Wouldn't Kamen be more than happy to earn extra $? |
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Post by meo4 on Apr 18, 2012 22:39:04 GMT 12
 At least SH2G integrated with the new Advanced MU90 torpedo's which is also integrated with the ANZAC frigates. This would make huge capability leap in ASW warfare over the current obsolete shelf expired MK46 torpedo which are no longer supportable. Not sure if integrated with P3C due to nations not willing to fund it. |
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