Eurocopter NH90 helicopters

[corsair67]

Good to hear: the 3SQN boys were always pretty expert with the monsoon bucket.

Another capability that used to come in handy at Wigram was assisting the Police or City Council recover cars that had crashed or been dumped down the hillside up on the Port Hills!

There used to be some great photos in an album on display at the Sign of the Kiwi, of an Iroqouis hauling a couple of burnt out wrecks up onto the Summit Rd.

[Dave Homewood]

A few other operaions I recall the Wigram Detachment being involved in were:
- flying hay to trapped sheep in snow in 1992
- recovering pot plants for the police
- a flight I was aboard was doing aerial photos of a murder scene, yikes! And RNZAF photog did the shots. I was then taken to a forest and winched in and out for the crewman to practice!

[Calum]

admin said:

My understanding is that NZ signed some sort of international treaty many decades ago which says the NZ Government must provide a SAR service. So if they start taking the capability away from the RNZAF, do they have to set up some Government-run civil unit? That makes no sense when a perfectly good service already exists in the RNZAF. The civil rescue helicopters in service now are run by private trusts, not the Government.

I

To be frank I expect many of dedicated Civy rescue helciopters would to a better job than the RNZAF. Many of them have better aircraft and equipment and are NVG capable..

Does the RNZAF use NVGs?

Plus they will do it cheaper and the RNZAF won't burn prescious hours on non core business.

[corsair67]

Calum, I think the Iroqouis have been made NVG capable; but don't quote me on that!

I'm sure I read that the Iroquois deployment to Fiordland had something to do with NVG training, but I'm sure Phil or someone else would be able to confirm whether this is true or not.

[Dave Homewood]

If NVG means night vision goggles, then yes, the RNZAF Iroquois crews do use thjem I believe, and have done so for some time.

You're right that some of the rescue choppers are better aircraft and more modern, but the trusts that run them are often struggling to find their own funding for the hours they do. Is giving them more work and taking it from the RNZAF not simply shifting a problem? Do you really think the Government will inject more cash their way? If they do, it'll obviously be at the RNZAF's expense, won't it?

[phil]

To be frank I expect many of dedicated Civy rescue helciopters would to a better job than the RNZAF. Many of them have better aircraft and equipment and are NVG capable..

Does the RNZAF use NVGs?

Plus they will do it cheaper and the RNZAF won't burn prescious hours on non core business.

Your taking the piss, right?

The civy NVG capability does not even come close to 3sqns. The technology used by 3sqn, and the level of capability achieved by using a multi crew airframe is far superior to any civy operation. Civies can't even get the NVG technology that 3 sqn has. Remember one of 3 sqns roles is working with our special forces, and they train all the time to operate at night on goggles, in formation. I would be surpirsed if there are many civies with a fraction of the goggle time that our SF qualified crews have.

There are better aeromedical evacuation operators, using dedicated airframes, that can provide a better service in the 'rescue helicopter/flying ambulance' scenario (ie westpac with its BK117) but for SAR the Iro has the legs, the size and the winching capability that exceeds what most civy frames can manage.

I don't think there are many operators that use the standard of winching equipment we have either.

[steve]

Right on the mark Phil......No 3 squadron has the experience and capability for serious multi rescue evacuation etc...Night vision training...i'm sure they have had that for some years and have quietly practiced with SAS and STG groups. I spent some years at a national training paramedic level working with our SAS and RNZAF. Sure the newer choppers are better suited for advanced life support for ONE patient.... however nothing like the sound of the iroquois when you have multi patients and in need of rescue! These new NH90s will surpass anything the private sector could muster and will be called on more frequently especially given their all most all weather capability...

[Dave Homewood]

I had months of sleepless nights at hobsonville where the Iroquois hovered over our barracks at 2 am, so they were doing night flying back in 1990/1991.

[corsair67]

Wasn't there a great deal of whining last year when a Govt review suggested that NZ had too many civil rescue operators, and that the number should be more than halved? I think NZ has something like more than twice the number of civil operated rescue helicopters that Australia has!

I agree that the civil operators certainly have the edge as far as on-board Intensive Care facilities are concerned, but as Phil said the RNZAF has the better winching capabilities and are better at handling SAR ops where quite a number of people need to be rescued at once.

The NZ Govt needs to bite the bullet: cut the number of civil operators back and use an excellent resource that they already have - the RNZAF - to call out when they need to.

[rnzafhusband]

I can definately concur with 3Sqn Night flying capabilities. last year they trained at Base Hobsonville with the SAS...as we were residents on base then, it was an impressive sight to see the helo's discharging rapelling soldiers in front of the old hangar....

[phil]

3 sqn have an annual exercise called ex peka peka, which is just one of the exercises they do each year that involves night flying. There is an article in the latest airforce news about this years exercise, and there was an article in about August or September last year that covered the 2005 exercise and had an article about the NVG capability. I wish I'd kept a copy as both articles were illustrated with my photos. The sqn operated what they call reverse cycle. Basically getting up at about 4pm and going to work at night, landing the last flight around 4am. Last year they went to Tekapo for a week (or maybe two), I'm not sure where the latest one was held, probably the same place. It's not too popular with the locals, so Tekapo is a good place to hold it!

[Dave Homewood]

There was one held in Tauranga a few months back too, where the locals heard the helicopters operating through the night. It was reported here with a link from stuff.co.nz

[Calum]

phil said:

To be frank I expect many of dedicated Civy rescue helciopters would to a better job than the RNZAF. Many of them have better aircraft and equipment and are NVG capable..

Does the RNZAF use NVGs?

Plus they will do it cheaper and the RNZAF won't burn prescious hours on non core business.

Your taking the piss, right?

The civy NVG capability does not even come close to 3sqns. The technology used by 3sqn, and the level of capability achieved by using a multi crew airframe is far superior to any civy operation. Civies can't even get the NVG technology that 3 sqn has. Remember one of 3 sqns roles is working with our special forces, and they train all the time to operate at night on goggles, in formation. I would be surpirsed if there are many civies with a fraction of the goggle time that our SF qualified crews have.

There are better aeromedical evacuation operators, using dedicated airframes, that can provide a better service in the 'rescue helicopter/flying ambulance' scenario (ie westpac with its BK117) but for SAR the Iro has the legs, the size and the winching capability that exceeds what most civy frames can manage.

I don't think there are many operators that use the standard of winching equipment we have either.

They do signifcantly more rescues the RNZAF though, and a lot of these rescuse are in crap conditions.

And I'll think you'll find many of civy rescue crews get plenty og NVG time. There was an interesting article I read a few weeks back about the Heli resuce company in Dunedin and their use of NVG's.

AS for the Hoist (winches are used on trucks/cars), I'm intimately involved with Helicopter Hoists (we're loking at a new one for the Squirrels) and I know that the Hoists used by many civys are very good, in fact they are often the same or newer than the military ones They have no problems upgrading to newer models, unlike miltary operators who generally are stuck with older items.

[Calum]

steve said:

Right on the mark Phil......No 3 squadron has the experience and capability for serious multi rescue evacuation etc...Night vision training...i'm sure they have had that for some years and have quietly practiced with SAS and STG groups. I spent some years at a national training paramedic level working with our SAS and RNZAF. Sure the newer choppers are better suited for advanced life support for ONE patient.... however nothing like the sound of the iroquois when you have multi patients and in need of rescue! These new NH90s will surpass anything the private sector could muster and will be called on more frequently especially given their all most all weather capability...

While I don't doubt the capabilty of 3 Sqn , I don't have this un-nerving belief that the military can everything better than a civy operator, particularly specialist taks like SAR and Aeromendical evacuation. In fact in my expereince civys can do most of purely civil roles better faster and cheaper than the military. But I digress

There is little call for a large (NH-90) size of rescue capability. Most resuces involve 1 or 2 people. Even in Aussie the "biggest Rescue Helicopters are in the 412 class, and they are usually aeromedical aircraft. Pure resuce a/c are often smaller.

Unless they're going to evacuating 10 plus people I can't see why you'd waste airframes hours and money using a NH-90. And to be honest how often have we seen the need for this sort of rescue. It happens but not every day.... or even year..

[Calum]

admin said:

I had months of sleepless nights at hobsonville where the Iroquois hovered over our barracks at 2 am, so they were doing night flying back in 1990/1991.

There's a difference between night flying and NVG op's. Although after the sotrm my post has caused I wouldn't be surprised that 3 Sqn has now a NVG Capabilty.

I should be able to able to find out next though

[Calum]

corsair67 said:

Wasn't there a great deal of whining last year when a Govt review suggested that NZ had too many civil rescue operators, and that the number should be more than halved? I think NZ has something like more than twice the number of civil operated rescue helicopters that Australia has!

I agree that the civil operators certainly have the edge as far as on-board Intensive Care facilities are concerned, but as Phil said the RNZAF has the better winching capabilities and are better at handling SAR ops where quite a number of people need to be rescued at once.

The NZ Govt needs to bite the bullet: cut the number of civil operators back and use an excellent resource that they already have - the RNZAF - to call out when they need to.

I disagree, leave the military to do military stuff. Thats their core business..Plus to be truely repsonsive you'd have to have detachments every where, whtin on amax of 12 Helo's that would hardly leave many airframes for the real job

In case you haven't noticced I have a serious problem with the government using military hours, money and personnel to do a job that is really a civilian responsiblity. Sure use the military in exceptional cricumstances, ( eg 1998 Sydney to hobart) but most time the military jsut get in the way of the professionals. Here even large Bushfires often don't have much military involvement.

Make sure they have sufficent rescue contracts to cover the country and let the market sort the rest out.... At least in NZ you have plenty of capabilty. I'd argue we don;t have enough here.

Another point, NZ has a large and very innovative civilian Rotary wing industry, much more so than here in some respects. Harming it to keep 3 Sqn happy would be just force more people smart people and money offshore....

[phil]

Don't patronise me about 'Hoists' vs 'winches', currently I work on the Iro hoists, so oddly enough I'm intimately familiar with them too.

We use the Western Gear (now Goodrich) 42305-1 Hoists.

www.hoistandwinch.com/images/PDFs/42305.pdf

Since the military goggles used by 3 sqn are not available on the civy market I doubt there are civilian crews with the technology available to 3 sqn.

[corsair67]

Whatever happened to the good old days of using a Bell-47 or Hiller UH-12 with 60 foot of rope hanging off the underside to haul someone out of the bush?

Whizz bang technology: who needs it? ;D

[phil]

In case you haven't noticced I have a serious problem with the government using military hours, money and personnel to do a job that is really a civilian responsiblity. Sure use the military in exceptional cricumstances, ( eg 1998 Sydney to hobart) but most time the military jsut get in the way of the professionals. Here even large Bushfires often don't have much military involvement.

Make sure they have sufficent rescue contracts to cover the country and let the market sort the rest out.... At least in NZ you have plenty of capabilty. I'd argue we don;t have enough here.

Another point, NZ has a large and very innovative civilian Rotary wing industry, much more so than here in some respects. Harming it to keep 3 Sqn happy would be just force more people smart people and money offshore....

Keep 3 sqn happy? SAR is an output that the govt requires of 3 sqn, its not a matter of keeping them happy.

Who decides that SAR is a civilian responsibility? The govt? Well I guess they have decided it is a military responsibility, and why not?

I find it funny that you distinguish between professionals and the military. Perhaps an organisation operating 10 frames (plus those in maintenance), a training school, and it's own operational and intermediate maintenance organisation are ammatures?

Possibly you should have put a full stop after the word 'problem' and left it at that....

[Dave Homewood]

Come on chaps, take a deep breath and calm down a bit. There's no need to get all upset over something that may never happen.