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Post by Bruce on Jun 7, 2006 22:01:51 GMT 12
I know where to get some handbags (cellphone optional) if you want to settle it like real men... (may even make a bit on trademe)  I think everyone has expressed valid opinions, however its getting a bit personal. Civilian rescue heli operators are by and large very professional, as are the 3 sqn crews, there isnt any doubt about that. I'd push for the status quo and have a choice of civil and military machines and crew available. (I'll be careful of the splinters sitting on the fence:) )there will be some instances where the size and downwash of an NH90 wouldnt be appropriate but a smaller machine such as a squirrel would be better, likewise the crews will have specialist skills in one area or another. In terms of ferrying search crews into remote areas, the RNZAF wins hands down, in other areas the specialist and intensive medivac procedures and equipment of the likes of the Westpac rescue machines are what is required. As a tramper and pilot, I am aware that one day (hopefully not) I may be a "customer". I am thankful that NZ has the range of specialist crews and hardware, civil and Military, to look after me when i need it. |
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Post by steve on Jun 8, 2006 2:36:35 GMT 12
I spent some years as a paramedic well involved in medivac and intensive care aerial transfers within NZ...and believe Bruce has got the topic balanced. I can only add that as stated earlier NZs Chopper rescue assets are apparently well out of proportion to the population...and has developed in a un co-ordinated fashion ....much like the road ambulance service .....St John...Wellington Free ...Hospital Boards etc...combined with funds from ACC and local charities it was/?is a mess.
Add to that is the excellent services of 3 Squadron and their full time 24/7 capabilities...For what its worth i believe that the RNZAF should be responsible for all off shore maritime rescues with the (eventual) NH90s and difficult/multi casualty rescue within NZ while our experieced heli operators look after the routine vehicle/medical emergencies? I wonder what the rescue civil/military mix is in other small size states?? ..ie Ireland,Norway etc
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 10:59:41 GMT 12
Don't patronise me about 'Hoists' vs 'winches', currently I work on the Iro hoists, so oddly enough I'm intimately familiar with them too. Take a deep breath phil, it was meant (mainly TIC)  What's your Hoist like reliability wise? Much corrosion issues? Got any pictures on how it is installed in the aircraft? It looks like the backup rescue hoist for the US CSAR MH-60's. Our Seahawks use a breeze Hydraulic hoist over the cabin door., Not sure about the Blackhawk though We are currently stuck with this on the Squirrel, www.hoistandwinch.com/images/PDFs/76370.pdfand are looking at replacing with either a www.hoistandwinch.com/images/PDFs/44301.pdfor a Kiwi designed installation for a Breeze 450lb hoist. www.breeze-eastern.com/products/hs29700.htmGoing to be a bit of an increase in capability for the poor little AS350BA though What sort of support do you get from the OEM for your Goodrich Hoist, At least you're dealing with Goodrich USA., much easier than dealing with Goodrich France I expect. Since the military goggles used by 3 sqn are not available on the civy market I doubt there are civilian crews with the technology available to 3 sqn. You'll be surprised what is available on ebay these days ;D Seriously though allot of the civy gear is very good and for civilian applications as good as the military gear. The article I referred to in an earlier post was about the Dunedin Rescue service helicopters who now fly all their night missions under NVG's. The article was pointing out that the NZ CAA has embraced NVG technology whilest CASA here has (in it's usual way) done everything to stop them being introduced. Only 1 civy operator here (Victoria Police air wing) has been allowed to use NVG's And yup this thread is way of track  |
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 11:17:08 GMT 12
Keep 3 sqn happy? SAR is an output that the govt requires of 3 sqn, its not a matter of keeping them happy. Who decides that SAR is a civilian responsibility? The govt? Well I guess they have decided it is a military responsibility, and why not? I find it funny that you distinguish between professionals and the military. Perhaps an organisation operating 10 frames (plus those in maintenance), a training school, and it's own operational and intermediate maintenance organisation are ammatures? Possibly you should have put a full stop after the word 'problem' and left it at that.... Phil I don't doubt the professionalism of much of the RNZAF. I spent over 8 years in the air force. But I have seen times, particularly in Bush fire situations where the military whilst trying to help do get in the way of the professionals. 3 Sqn are undoubtedly excellent at military helicopter operations, SAR and really all forms of rotary wing ops. But if you really think that their much of their time should be dedicated to essentially civilian type operations then fair enough. Me (if I was still in) would prefer that military skills are the top priority and I'd be happy to leave SAR and all that to the civy's. After most rescues are at night in crap weather and even worse on the weekend :-) My point being that NZ's limited MILITARY budget should be spent on MILITARY operations and training, not providing services that can mostly be provided by industry. |
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 9, 2006 11:53:34 GMT 12
I see that the UK is planning to launch a competition in the next 12 months to establish a single rescue service to replace the RAF, RN and civil maritime services that are currently operational. Saving money is the driving force behind this change.
I guess it will be interesting to see what comes out of this, because the UK is probably quite similar to NZ as far as changable weather and rough seas are concerned.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 9, 2006 13:11:11 GMT 12
Slightly related to the discussion... Phil or anyone, I am interested to know if the RNZAF still uses a particular type of harness with their gerney stretchers. It was stowed in a bag at the foot end of the gerney, and when deployed it has several attachment points along the sides, and from memory two lengthwise straps up the body. It was made from 22,000lb strain seatbelt material if I recall right.
Anyway, these kits were designed in 1991 to replace the long-used and standard Iroquois gerney harness after a patient being winched (hoisted??) aboard from a ship in rogh seas in late 1990 woke up, freaked out and struggled enough to fall from the gerney into the sea!
No. 3 Squaron Detachment asked for a redesign so this would never happen again, and they were overwhelmingly happy with the new design, which was designed by myself and LAC Simon Williamson at Wigram. It was officially tested (with me in the gerney) on land and in the air (attached to a Sioux flown so hard as to try to topple me out, errr, sickening that was). Once approved it entered service in Wigram and Auckland and Simon and i made up all the kits. W also wrote the manual and the heirachy chose to use me, the crash test dummy, in the manual photos.
I'm keen to see if its still being used today and if my mug is still in the servicing manual!
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Post by phil on Jun 9, 2006 17:32:34 GMT 12
Calum:
We have almost no trouble with corrosion on our hoists, we had to fail a couple of drums last year, but that is about all. We get very good support from Goodrich, currently we have a couple of hoists over at the factory for overhaul. Most of our problems are related to the pubs, which is as much our fault as anything. Our servicing policy that was developed when the hoists came into service is not really in line with the OEM's and that causes us a bit of grief. Also we lack the correct test rig and a decent power supply. Both to be fixed soon, hopefully. Usual story - the air foce got the hoists, but to save money didn't get the test rig.
Dave - I'm not sure what the harness is that's in use, I'll try and find out for you.
It will be interesting to see which hoist we get for the Squirrel (or whatever the light helo turns out to be). I suspect it will be a Goodrich product, but who knows.
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 9, 2006 17:50:46 GMT 12
Knowing the way defence purchasing sometimes works, you'll get the helicopters first but the hoists won't arrive until 12 months later! |
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 22:07:08 GMT 12
Calum: We have almost no trouble with corrosion on our hoists, we had to fail a couple of drums last year, but that is about all. We get very good support from Goodrich, currently we have a couple of hoists over at the factory for overhaul. Most of our problems are related to the pubs, which is as much our fault as anything. Our servicing policy that was developed when the hoists came into service is not really in line with the OEM's and that causes us a bit of grief. Also we lack the correct test rig and a decent power supply. Both to be fixed soon, hopefully. Usual story - the air foce got the hoists, but to save money didn't get the test rig. Know what you're saying with the pubs. Ours are shocking as they translated verbatuim from french they are often gibberish. We went through the same thing with the servicing policy, we just got ours aligned about 18 months ago. Corrison is a big problem with ours. Operating over ships and the sea all the time really causes havoc |
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 22:09:19 GMT 12
I see that the UK is planning to launch a competition in the next 12 months to establish a single rescue service to replace the RAF, RN and civil maritime services that are currently operational. Saving money is the driving force behind this change. I guess it will be interesting to see what comes out of this, because the UK is probably quite similar to NZ as far as changable weather and rough seas are concerned. Most the RAF rescue stuff (Sea King Mk 3A) has gone. Been replaced with a civy contract flying Bell 412's IIRC. All their rotary wing training is done by contract as well on Squirrels and 412's Think the same firm has the contract for this as well. |
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Post by phil on Jul 10, 2006 18:23:08 GMT 12
Having attended the Hoist users safety conference hosted by westpac trust in Auckland over the weekend, I stand corrected on the level of NVG technology currently operated by the two civy companies currently employing it in NZ.
Somehow they have managed to purchase the AN/NVS9 equipment from ITT and this is the same gear used by the military. It seems the US state dept likes NZ enough to grant export licenses for EMS/Rescue operators here.
Interestingly enough, if you are lost in the bush you are now more likely to be found at night by the light from your cell phone screen than you are during the day! (this can be seen from a couple of ks away using AN/NVS9). If you have a torch you are pretty much certain to be found, even if it is a little LED key ring light, it's like carrying around your own little night sun when the NVGs are looking for you.
The other thing I learnt is I'd rather be winched out of the bush by the air force than any civy operator!
One of the operators averages 5 live winches a year. 3 sqn can average 120 a day... The civies were blown away by that figure. They were also blown away by the fact that we sometimes do as many as two cable changes a week, some of them have had two cable chages in ten years. This includes the Aussie operators that were present!
After seeing the equipment used by many civy operators, I'll take our Goodrich hoists any day of the week. Little breeze eastern hoists with 1/8in cables... no thanks!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 10, 2006 18:47:47 GMT 12
Yesterday at Ardmore Simon Gault introduced me to Rob Neil and Calum Macpherson from Pacific Wings, who had just been to the same conference. They seemed blown away by the modern NVG gear demonstrations and were telling us all about it. They sound amazing. Rob said one video showed a small candle in the bush beneath the canopy of the forest was sighting 6km's away! Incredible.
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Post by phil on Jul 10, 2006 20:08:15 GMT 12
That was pretty impressive, although unfortunately nothing to do with hoists....
It was a bit too much 'Look at me I'm a pilot and see how good I am with my with NVGs'
Not quite what we were there for, but never the less very impressive, and interesting due to the novelty of the subject matter.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 10, 2006 20:31:17 GMT 12
I wonder what the stas are on successful rescues in NZ now compared to before they began using them. Has it risen dramatically - if not in numbers, has the time taken fallen?
Rob said that companies have to apply for a licence from the US Governemnt (was it State Department?) and then once granted the licence still have to wait a year. Why is this? Do you know?
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Post by steve on Jul 10, 2006 20:31:47 GMT 12
I heard over radio that cabinet had approved "up to eight NH90s" depending on negotiation....surely they would not fall below 8...i suppose additional choppers could be acquired at a later date...maybe the training helos could be multi purpose?
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Post by phil on Jul 10, 2006 20:47:57 GMT 12
There are a couple of factors, firstly 98% of ITTs Aviation rated NVGs (ie 98% of the Aviation rated NVGs) are going to the US military, so the availability of the goggles is greatly reduced. Secondly, becuase these are top of the line NVGs, they are full of sneaky beaky technology that the Americans don't want just anyone having. Hence any overseas sales require state department approval, a process that can take up to four months or longer. I wonder what the stas are on successful rescues in NZ now compared to before they began using them. Has it risen dramatically - if not in numbers, has the time taken fallen? Rob said that companies have to apply for a licence from the US Governemnt (was it State Department?) and then once granted the licence still have to wait a year. Why is this? Do you know? |
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Post by xr6turbo1 on Jul 10, 2006 21:55:09 GMT 12
I heard over radio that cabinet had approved "up to eight NH90s" depending on negotiation....surely they would not fall below 8...i suppose additional choppers could be acquired at a later date...maybe the training helos could be multi purpose? Well you would like they wouldnt drop below 8, by the time routine maintainence happens could we only expect 5 or 6 in the air at one time? Not enough I would have thought? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 11, 2006 0:18:39 GMT 12
thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/10/apworld/20060710143955&sec=apworldNew Zealand to begin negotiations to buy European helicopters WELLINGTON (AP) - New Zealand on Monday gave negotiatiors authorization to start talks with European suppliers on buying up to eight NH90 helicopters for the country's air force, Defense Minister Phil Goff said. The announcement came after the Cabinet approved the next step in the purchase of new helicopters to replace the nation's Vietnam-era fleet. The go-ahead means that New Zealand will likely spend more than 500 million New Zealand dollars (US$306 million; euro239 million) to replace its 14 Iroquois by 2009, and also its smaller fleet of Sioux trainer choppers bought in 1965. Goff said officials would soon enter into negotiations with Nato Helicopter Industries for the purchase of the new helicopters, to be used for both military purposes and for civilian search-and-rescue operations. The NH90s have a greater range than the Iroquois, and can better operate at night and during bad weather. Classed as medium utility helicopters, the NH90 can carry 16 fully equipped troops - more than three times the number an Iroquois could take. With a cruising speed of 300 kilometers (190 miles) an hour and a maximum range of 900 kilometers (560 miles), the NH90 can lift a vehicle weighing several tons. Australia has already bought 12 NH90s, which are due for delivery next year, and announced it has ordered another 34.
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Post by corsair67 on Jul 11, 2006 10:27:59 GMT 12
So, it looks like Comrade Clark and Co are going to take the soft option and buy the bare minimum number of NH-90 choppers that they can get away with. Gee, couldn't see that coming!  Maybe they're holding out until those lovely used S-70-A9 Blackhawks are retired by the Australian Army?  ??  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 11, 2006 11:44:42 GMT 12
I think after the purchase of the NH-90's they should explore some Russian choppers to make uip the numbers. Russia owes NZ so many millions of dollars we could just about get them for free.
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