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Post by corsair5517 on Jul 12, 2013 19:59:51 GMT 12
We've just been holidaying in the Outback, and the station we were staying on - Carisbrooke - has a cairn where a USAAF B-17 force landed after running out of fuel with a certain Lieutenant Commander Lyndon Baines Johnson as a passenger on board.
Their navigation was appalling as they were heading for Cloncurry, which is about 400 miles away!!
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Post by ngatimozart on Jul 12, 2013 22:00:58 GMT 12
Interesting. The term there for his title of "Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary" I had to look up. Apparently a "Plenipotentiary" is an evoy with full powers to take action. Interesting, he must have been a very powerful and interesting man. Off thread but to answer Daves question. From Wikipedia. Brig Gen Patrick J Hurley, US Army was an interesting man. He was a World War 1 vet and prior to World War 2 had served as Secretary of War in the Hoover administration. He started the war as General George C Marshalls (US Army Chief of Staff during the war and as the chief military adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt) personal representative to determine feasibilty of rescuing besieged US troops at Bataan. This would have bought him into conflict with Gen Douglas MacArthur because MacArthur despised Marshall and vice versa. Brig Gen Hurley then served as President Roosevelts' personal representative to NZ, USSR and US ambassador to China. MacArthur apparently also had a personal B17 solely for his use and from what I've read it would be his use only. |
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Post by shamus on Jul 13, 2013 12:05:50 GMT 12
steveb. The first reference to a B17 being named 'Texas Tornado' comes from an entry in the Aviation Historical Society of NZ, Journal by John Regan. who states; "The B17E, 41-2458 seen at Woodbourne was named 'Texas Tornado'. This was painted in large letters on the port side of the nose. This AHSNZ Journal was dated, 1st.Feb. 1971.
The article, in error, states that this was the one that crashed at Whenuapai. The official report tells us that it was not the one that crashed. The Whenuapai B17 crash was of course, 41-2667.
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Post by errolmartyn on Jul 13, 2013 15:01:45 GMT 12
From the Supplementary Notes section of my For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 (Volume Two: Fates 1943-1998):
Mon 8/Tue 9 Jun 1942
NEW ZEALAND
‘Secret mission’ - flight from Whenuapai to Laverton, Victoria, Australia.
2nd Provisional Bombardment Squadron(?), USAAF
Boeing B-17E Fortress 41-2667 - took off to the SW at 0027 in clear, almost calm weather, with low cloud in the direction of take off partially obscuring the horizon. Climbed about 150 feet, levelled off then gradually descended until it flew into a gently rising slope on the farm of Mr G W Sinton, east of the main Auckland-Helensville highway and 2 miles from the airfield. The 11 passengers and crew died as the B-17 burst into flames on impact. Four minutes later two of four 500lb bombs on board exploded. Although £2000 of damage was done to surrounding houses and outbuildings, remarkably four civilians within 25 yards of the explosions escaped uninjured. The dead were buried in Waikumete Cemetery on the 12th, remains of some or all later being exhumed and transported to their home towns. The passengers were cremated and their ashes later returned to Asia. The crash was the most serious aircraft accident in New Zealand to date. The death toll was exceeded only by the crash of NZNAC DC-3 ZK-AYZ in the Kaimai Ranges on 3 July 1963.
Captain: 0-16724 Col Richard E COBB, USAAF. 6991+hrs solo (114+ on B-17)
Co-pilot: 0-373817 Capt James R BRUCE, USAAF.
Navigator 0-430049 Lt Edward H HOFFMAN, USAAF.
Crew: 6393791 Tech Sgt Charles P BRUNSON, USAAF.
Crew: 6267718 Tech Sgt Joe F LOPEZ, USAAF.
Crew: 6948800 Sgt Harry COHN, USAAF.
Crew: 13004012 Cpl James HERRIOTTS Jr, USAAF.
Crew: 7021855 Cpl John R CLANTON, USAAF.
Crew: 7083882 Private Curtis L CHILDERS, USAAF.
Passenger: Lt E W HURST, USN.
Passenger: Capt J GILBERT, Free French Navy.
The flying hours quoted for Cobb appear on a report received on 26 March 1942. Seven of the USAAF personnel were attached to the 2nd Provisional Bombardment Squadron. Cobb, Bruce and the B-17 may also have belonged to the same unit. The Squadron, most probably hurriedly and tentatively formed in the wake of Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbour and invasion of South-east Asia, no longer existed by September 1942. US military reports on the accident fail to correctly identify the aircraft’s serial number, muddling the figures and at times confusing it with the manufacturer’s construction number. Minor variations in the spelling of names also occurs.
This entry was based on a copy of the official USAAF accident report.
And from Vol Three (Biographies & Appendices):
Amendment -
GILBERT, J – full name Jean Clovis Alexandre Gilbert. He was a 35 year old pilot and at the time of the accident OC of the Free French Navy in Noumea.
Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 14, 2013 17:38:16 GMT 12
These were sent to me today to post here from exrafstacker, photos from his phone of the Memorial plaque in the Whenuapai Chapel:   |
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kiwiwreckdiver
Squadron Leader
Still military and aviation history mad
Posts: 123
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Post by kiwiwreckdiver on Jul 16, 2013 1:01:11 GMT 12
Out of interest has anyone ever been to the B17 crash site ??
Is it still farm land or is it houses now ??
I have seen a picture of what looks to be e very big hole with the remains of a B17 tail in it.
Dose anyone have a good idea of where she went in ??
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Post by shamus on Jul 16, 2013 10:50:33 GMT 12
The crash site is just off the old main road from Massey heading north towards Kumeu (keep left) or Whenuapai (turn right).
The site is on the right hand side going north. I went there some years back but don't know if the house is still there.
Their has been quite a bit of change along that road which of course is no longer the main road as it has been replaced by a new
four lane motorway. My memory tells me that the hole had been filled in. Their is nothing there to tell you that anything occurred
at the spot. Will check it out next time i'm in that area and post a photo on this thread.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 16, 2013 11:01:51 GMT 12
Thanks Jim, that is a different location from where I'd been told by a veteran, so I accidentally misinformed Pat (exrafstacker). Whoops.
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 19, 2013 8:20:28 GMT 12
Out of interest has anyone ever been to the B17 crash site ?? Is it still farm land or is it houses now ?? I have seen a picture of what looks to be e very big hole with the remains of a B17 tail in it. Dose anyone have a good idea of where she went in ?? I managed to get to read the actual RNZAF crash report from 1942 which is held in the archive at the RNZAF Museum at Christchurch this week. The report was purely factual and informative with a number of attached photographs. There was also a memo attached from a very senior RNZAF officer from the early 80's stating that the information from the report should never be disclosed to the general public, it seems a TV documentary was going to be made about the event but the US DoD still want to keep the details of the aircraft crash and why the aircraft was in New Zealand to themselves. The actual crash site is on the old State Highway 16, and if I have it correct from my look at the one aerial photograph I saw, it is the house to the left as you look from the road at the new road leading to the Westgate Shopping Centre extension. The report stated that the aircraft hit the ground, bounced and bellied. At least two crewmen survived and one was seen dragging out a colleague from the burning aircraft, he rescued at least one, who was found dead in a hedge and on going back in was sadly killed when the bombs cooked off. The other crewman who made it out of the wreckage was found further up the hill and was also killed by the bomb blast. Had he gone downhill he may have survived. I'll try and get some photographs of the crash site in the next few weeks. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 19, 2013 11:21:41 GMT 12
Wow, what could be so embarrassing about it that they want it kept secret forever I wonder? Maybe it's true they were all drunk as some have suggested?
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Post by suthg on Jul 19, 2013 11:34:28 GMT 12
Very sad, even now.
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Post by shamus on Jul 19, 2013 14:48:23 GMT 12
I have a copy of this report and their is nothing in it that i can see would need to be kept from the public. Their is no mention of liquor in any of the report. The only thing that i believe constitutes a breach of good airmanship is the fact that they did not do any checks or runups at the end of the runway but turned straight away and commenced the take-off.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 19, 2013 15:15:57 GMT 12
Thanks Jim. We have to wonder what they want to hide, it must be about their aircraft's mission in NZ rather than the crew and the crash.
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Post by shamus on Jul 19, 2013 17:05:18 GMT 12
Dave, their is nothing in the report about their mission to NZ. The report is just the statements of the witnesses to the crews arrival at Whenuapai that night and the take-off and subsequent crash. So what is so secret? I don't know.
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 19, 2013 18:13:47 GMT 12
I wonder if there are any pictures of the aircraft in existence apart from a smoldering wreck? It would be amazing to see the nose art.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 19, 2013 18:17:17 GMT 12
Pat, if you see Shamus's post near the top of page 9 of this thread he says the name Texas Tornado was actually on a different B-17.
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Post by chinapilot on Jul 19, 2013 18:17:27 GMT 12
Maybe,just maybe, in the '80s the US were reticent to have details released or maybe the officer was self censoring - if he is still around might be worth a 'phone call
The IDPF (Individual Deceased Personal File) for Col. Cobb might have some more answers as they can sometimes amount to over 50 pages of A5 and contain many snippets that are not in the MACR.
On the face of it maybe the 'mission' was to liaise about French bases in the Pacific especially New Caledonia and the New Hebrides. June was still early in the Pacific war and there must have been concern about how much the French in the SW Pacific tended towards being 'Vichy'...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 19, 2013 18:24:39 GMT 12
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 19, 2013 19:02:24 GMT 12
Pat, if you see Shamus's post near the top of page 9 of this thread he says the name Texas Tornado was actually on a different B-17. So there is no guarantee that it was the Texas Tornado which crashed? We can assume the aircraft had tail number 41-2667 though? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 19, 2013 19:22:15 GMT 12
I think that is what Shamus was saying.
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