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Post by shamus on Jul 19, 2013 22:00:21 GMT 12
exrafstacker, not a matter of assuming. It is fact. 41-2667 is the aircraft serial listed in the official report of the crash.
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kiwiwreckdiver
Squadron Leader
Still military and aviation history mad
Posts: 123
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Post by kiwiwreckdiver on Jul 20, 2013 4:52:02 GMT 12
From what Iv seen , I think it had its name in plain block writing on the nose. There have been a few pictures of it sitting at one of the Auckland airfields runways.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 20, 2013 8:19:01 GMT 12
Kiwiwreckdiver, the point being made by Shamus is the aircraft with the "Texas Tornado" name on it (41-2456) is not the aircraft that crashed at Whenuapai. It was a separate B-17 that visited New Zealand and was wrongly attributed as being the crash aircraft, which was actually 41-2667.
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Post by shamus on Jul 20, 2013 10:16:14 GMT 12
41-2458, Dave not 2456. I have only seen one photo of the B17 with Texas Tornado painted on the port side of the nose. Because of the angle it was taken from only the last two numbers of its serial were visible and they were not 67. This photo went missing after its owner, Des Leonard died but somewhere out there it may still be or another copy of it. Someday it may turn up.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 20, 2013 11:56:37 GMT 12
"41-2458, Dave not 2456."
Sorry Jim, I copied and pasted the serials from your post on page none, so not my error.
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Post by shamus on Jul 20, 2013 13:19:49 GMT 12
Sorry Dave, my fault. Have edited post to correct serial.
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 22, 2013 21:39:41 GMT 12
It goes to show that one written mistake can change history, or perhaps in this case deception? Proof that meticulous research is always required. So do we have the plaque changed, if so what to? Thoughts please gents.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 22, 2013 21:51:30 GMT 12
That is a very valid question. It's a pity but for the purposes of accuracy i guess a change is needed.
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Post by baronbeeza on Jul 22, 2013 22:45:57 GMT 12
Pat, if you see Shamus's post near the top of page 9 of this thread he says the name Texas Tornado was actually on a different B-17. Or, is it possible the name was correct but the S/N listed was wrong. www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-17/41-2458.htmlSo what aircraft was the Texas Tornado ? Was it this one before the appearance of the young lady while at Brisbane ? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 22, 2013 23:06:31 GMT 12
Are you suggesting Baronbeeza that the official report of the crash has the wrong serial number??
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Post by baronbeeza on Jul 22, 2013 23:21:54 GMT 12
Not at all.
I have not read all 10 pages but I did read what Shamus referenced.
The first reference to a B17 being named 'Texas Tornado' comes from an entry in the Aviation Historical Society of NZ, Journal by John Regan. who states; "The B17E, 41-2458 seen at Woodbourne was named 'Texas Tornado'. This was painted in large letters on the port side of the nose. This AHSNZ Journal was dated, 1st.Feb. 1971.
The article, in error, states that this was the one that crashed at Whenuapai. The official report tells us that it was not the one that crashed. The Whenuapai B17 crash was of course, 41-2667.
Given that 41-2458 had another nickname for at least part of it's life and we can see no other reference to another B-17 then is it likely the journalist got it wrong ?
The article gives a description of the name, so detailed it infers that there was no accompanying photo.
I also noted that the accident aircraft was the first B-17 to visit NZ. Given that, it would have been very difficult to get the names confused in 1942.
I would think that there is a good chance 41-2667 was the Texas Tornado.
If it wasn't then which aircraft was ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 22, 2013 23:30:39 GMT 12
OK, I see what you meant now. You might be right.
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Post by baronbeeza on Jul 23, 2013 2:00:53 GMT 12
I have read more of the thread, only working from the last two pages earlier as my internet connection here is slow.  21 Jul 2008 at 21:29 Quote Post by Dave Homewood on 21 Jul 2008 at 21:29 Here's the one that visited Woodbourne I am sure I did read that the Texas Tornado had been reported as the first B-17E to visit NZ. Is it likely that the confusion was caused at that point and the author of the article put two and two together. I put up a link to the Woodbourne aircraft earlier and the timeline works out pretty well I think. www.ozatwar.com/19thbg.htm |
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 23, 2013 13:55:47 GMT 12
Not wanting to state the obvious but there is nothing written on the port side of the nose of 41-2458 (that I can see). This fuels the theory that baronbeeza is correct.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 23, 2013 14:32:29 GMT 12
Yes, I was thinking the same thing.
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Post by baronbeeza on Jul 23, 2013 14:39:13 GMT 12
It was quite a long thread and I only picked up on a few clues at the very end of it. I still have not managed to read it all the way through but I did see somewhere last night that someone else had suspicions about the 1971 magazine article. I think it may have even been Shamus that was having doubts about the Woodbourne aircraft being the Tornado.
The way I am reading it the Texas Tornado was quite clear, it's history was rather brief anyway.
The background reading on the other aircraft however was rather interesting. (41-2458 the Woodbourne B-17)
It survived the war after being in it since almost the start. From the fall of Java though to being based at Batchelor and then on to various other locations about Australia.
I realise there was still a suggestion that the 'missing' photo may show the Texas Tornado name on an aircraft with other than a 67 tail number.
I am thinking that any photo of the Texas Tornado nose art must be difficult to come across.
The good news being that the plaque is probably correct as it stands. One less job to worry about.
It was the future location under discussion I believe. More work..
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 23, 2013 15:26:43 GMT 12
Maybe you guys should ring into talkback radio and see what other memories get stirred up, that is how Ewing Stephen got lots of his info. Maybe there are photos out there to be found yet.
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 23, 2013 18:35:37 GMT 12
It was quite a long thread and I only picked up on a few clues at the very end of it. I still have not managed to read it all the way through but I did see somewhere last night that someone else had suspicions about the 1971 magazine article. I think it may have even been Shamus that was having doubts about the Woodbourne aircraft being the Tornado. The way I am reading it the Texas Tornado was quite clear, it's history was rather brief anyway. The background reading on the other aircraft however was rather interesting. (41-2458 the Woodbourne B-17) It survived the war after being in it since almost the start. From the fall of Java though to being based at Batchelor and then on to various other locations about Australia. I realise there was still a suggestion that the 'missing' photo may show the Texas Tornado name on an aircraft with other than a 67 tail number. I am thinking that any photo of the Texas Tornado nose art must be difficult to come across. The good news being that the plaque is probably correct as it stands. One less job to worry about. It was the future location under discussion I believe. More work.. Agreed! I'm happy to leave the discussion of the placing of the plaque open to the forum. Firstly though in my opinion the crew of the aircraft should be remembered more than against the wall on the floor of the Whenuapai base vestry regardless of the aircraft name or tail number. Secondly it needs to be in a prominent place, I'm thinking on the wall of the chapel, in base HQ or even moved to the RNZAF museum. When the decision is made I'll ask for a reblessing and all will be invited. I'd like to add a picture of the aircraft and perhaps a little framed story, I'm not sure yet but I'm happy for advice or suggestions. I like the idea of the radio request for information. Most importantly though if our guys had died in another country I'd hate to see them forgotten. Lest we forget. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 23, 2013 18:42:19 GMT 12
I agree it needs more prominence but I think the plaque should stay at Whenuapai, where the crash occurred, rather than Wigram.
Are there any memorials on the base to the RNZAF members who died in crashes there?
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Post by exrafstacker on Jul 23, 2013 18:53:05 GMT 12
I'm not sure Dave, I'll have to ask or go for a mooch around. There have been a few prangs including an aircraft through the hangar roof next to where I work.
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