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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2006 1:20:32 GMT 12
Some time back we discussed the options the RNZAF looked at when the Skyhawk was selected for purchase - F-4 Phantom being a frontrunner. And later when the Skyhawk was to be replaced, the Harrier, Hawk and F-16 were all closely looked at, but then Kahu was decided on.
I thought it'd be intersting to share what we know of other selection alternatives.
Did you know back in the early 1970's when the Government was looking for a replacement for the six Dakotas of 42 Sqn and the nine Bristol Freighters of No's 1 and 41 Squadrons, the following were looked at or evaluated -
Fokker F-27 Friendship (imagine that in tactical camoflage!)
Fokker F-28 Fellowship
McDonnell Douglas DC-9-30
In fact the DC-9 was approved by authorities for final evaluation to take on the VIP role, but at this last hurdle then PM Norman Kirk decided such comfort wasn't fitting for his style and he preferred to travel the world in a 40 Squadron Hercules! No wonder he died young.
Which other types have been shortlisted but never 'cast for the role' of RNZAF replacement? What was evaluated when the Canberra was bought or when the Vampire ws replaced? Anyone got some stories?
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Post by phil82 on Aug 24, 2006 10:19:22 GMT 12
Morrison, when he was CAS, wanted the F111! No kidding.
He was Judy Bailey's father by the way.
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 24, 2006 15:28:29 GMT 12
The F-111: now that would have really been impressive to see in RNZAF colours. At least all the Canberra navs would have had a decent job to go to when the Canberras were replaced!  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2006 20:58:25 GMT 12
Ah yes, I'd heard that some time ago about the F-111's.
Were there any other alternatives considered when the Orion was selected?
I think the Sioux was selected outright simply because the civvies had shown the Govt how good they were - in cases like the Kaimai DC-3 crash. Or am I wrong and others like the Hiller were also considered?
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Post by xr6turbo1 on Aug 24, 2006 21:24:45 GMT 12
I remember an OH 58 Kiowa helicopter being at Wodbounre as it was being evaluated by the RNZAF. That was in the mid 80s from memory.
It was an American aircraft that was there for a day or so.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2006 21:51:25 GMT 12
Interesting.
I recall one of those twin engiend cargo planes with a ramp built by CASA of Spain was also evaluated in the early 1990's as a possible Andover replacement. CASA put loads of adverts into NZ aviation magazines at the time like NZ Wings. I think it was more wishful thinking on their part than a desire by the RNZAF, but personally I think they'd be better for 42 Squadron than the junk they have now.
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 24, 2006 22:11:23 GMT 12
I remember that this 'thing' was on the list of possible Strikemaster replacements, but I don't think it was ever a really serious contender. www.machdiamonds.com/squalus.html |
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Post by phil82 on Aug 24, 2006 22:32:46 GMT 12
Not really, although the French Atlantic was around, except the put one into a building in a serious crash at Farnborough.
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 24, 2006 22:35:54 GMT 12
Yes, well crashing one of your aircraft at an airshow can certainly put the customers off somewhat.  |
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Post by Calum on Aug 24, 2006 23:56:55 GMT 12
Didn't do the tiger any harm in Aussie tho :-)
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Post by steve on Aug 25, 2006 0:49:09 GMT 12
AVM Morrisons must have been a real gem for the RNZAF...I rembember as a boy in 1966 reading about him and his plans for the RNZAF (Weekly News). From what I understand he really pushed hard for the F111s ,phamtoms f5s and a4s in about that order...I also read that he changed internal structures and terminolgies to work more closley within ANZUS...ie RNZAF stations became RNZAF air force bases etc...Colin any memories here ...I believe he was termed the father of the modern RNZAF...he really must have some pull in political circles...Judy Bailey was English born was he ex RAF?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 25, 2006 1:07:50 GMT 12
Morrison was born in Amberley, NZ. He served in the prewar RNZAF from the 31st of Jan 1939 through till retrement on 25th of August 1966 (huh, 40 years ago!)
He commanded among other units, 8 GR Squadron at Gisborne, where he was not at all popular with many of the men for his pompous attitude and other reasons. He also commanded No.3 BR Squadron on Venturas.
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Post by phasselgren on Aug 25, 2006 4:22:49 GMT 12
Were there any other alternatives considered when the Orion was selected? Wasn´t the original plan to use Hercules for Maritime Recce? I think the idea was to simplify maintenance but in the end Hercules couldn´t fulfil all demands on this type of aircraft. If I remember it correct one reason for the choice of Orion was a common engine with Hercules (maintenance costs again). Peter |
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Post by phasselgren on Aug 25, 2006 4:33:05 GMT 12
According to The History of New Zealand Aviation about 10 types were discussed before the choice fell on the Skyhawk.
Among them was F-111, F-4C Phantom, F-5 Freedom Fighter, Mirage III, Mirage V, A-7 Corsair II, A-6 Attacker and of course A-4. With F-111 in the top and F-4C as second best and "of course" least wanted was A-4.
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Post by phil82 on Aug 25, 2006 7:11:07 GMT 12
Morrison wasn't ex-RAF, but spent some time in the UK on various postings.
I was in Singapore most of 1966, and in any case as an LAC at the time I never met him! He did fight for the modernisation of the RNZAF however, and was directly responsible for the Hercs and Orions.
He also adopted the "Base" and "Groups" designations of the USAF rather than the previous RAF "Stations "
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Post by turboNZ on Aug 25, 2006 9:12:24 GMT 12
A-6 Intruders (Attackers?) would have been good for us. They had an excellent record in Vietnam, only thing they lacked was air to air, which the A-4K had.
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Post by phil82 on Aug 25, 2006 10:34:52 GMT 12
Sorry Turbo, but the A6 did have air-to-air, in fact some of them were used as buddy tankers to refuel Skyhawks and the like returning from sorties over Vietnam. They could also receive fuel, of course.
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Post by turboNZ on Aug 25, 2006 10:55:47 GMT 12
Ah okay, I stand corrected on the air to air, I thought they were only bombers / tankers / recon etc. I did know they did buddy-buddy refuelling  |
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Post by corsair67 on Aug 25, 2006 12:13:23 GMT 12
That's true, but then that accident was a good demonstration of the Tiger's crash survivability as that particular Tiger hit the ground pretty hard, but both crew walked away unharmed. Still must have been embarassing though. Turbo, did you mean "air-to-air" as in air-to-air missile capability, or aerial refuelling? |
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Post by Calum on Aug 25, 2006 12:15:11 GMT 12
I think Turbo meant Air to air combat capabilty. I'm pretty sure the A-6 didn't have a ATA capbility.
I really can't see anything available at the time the A-4 was selected that was suitbale for the RNZAF as the A-4 was.
Now I'd suggest the F-16 is still the best A/c for a Fighter/attack a/c for the RNZAF. Perhaps the Gripen but the F-16 is cheaper and as capable. Plus the fleet size means that support would be significantly easier. The only issue for teeh F-16 would air to air refuelling although I believe the Israeli's have put a probe on some of their F-16's.
As a hypothetical we could have bought 1 or 2 A330 MRTT's to operate alongside the RAAF fleet, giving a great tanker and transport capability. Better than the 757.
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