Classic Fighters 2015 - ANZAC PIONEERS

[kiwithrottlejockey]

I posted my last message in a hurry, because I had to head off to work for 10½-hours, but I'm home again now (just walked in the door), so I'll elaborate a bit more.

Yes, Gold Passes are expensive, but the cost of running a major three-day airshow is HUGE and without sponsorship and premium grandstand seating income, it just isn't going to happen.

I attended the very first Warbirds Over Wanaka in 1990 and thoroughly enjoyed it, dust and all. For the 1992 Warbirds Over Wanaka, the airshow organisers announced they were bringing a Me109 (of the Spanish-built variety) to NZ to dogfight Tim Wallis' Spitfire Mk.XVI and that to help cover the cost of that they were going to erect a gold-pass grandstand and charge $100 for the privilege of a grandstand seat. $100 was a lot of money to attend an airshow back then, but myself and a friend from Gisborne (where I was living at the time) decided the $100 was worth it to see that dogfight and if it meant putting our hands deeper in our pockets, then we could afford it, so everybody benefitted, including those who couldn't afford the $100 cost of a gold pass. So we went for it, and discovered that having a grandstand seat was much better than mixing it with the crowd in the "mosh pit" (so to speak). So ever since then, I've always splashed out for a gold pass, except for the first year they had a silver-pass grandstand, when the group of us who always meet up at Warbirds Over Wanaka decided to try that option; however, the next airshow we went back to the gold pass grandstand and have continued to patronise that enclosure. And I note the comments about it being expensive to do a trip way down to near the bottom of the South Island, although I have often tied it in with visiting various places in the South and have in fact got to explore a huge proportion of the South Island in the process. Plus, during the first ten years or so of Warbirds Over Wanaka airshows, I was into alpine tramping and climbing, so tended to spend a few weeks down south heading off on various adventures in the mountains, with Warbirds Over Wanaka being only a part of it.

At the big airshow at Auckland International back in the 1990s (I cannot recall which year off the top of my head), friends and I went for the gold-pass option, because although it was expensive, we considered it worth it.

Then, in 2001 the first Classic Fighters airshow occurred at Omaka, and once again (having tasted the gold-pass option elsewhere), the obvious choice was a gold-pass. I have been to every Classic Fighters airshow at Omaka, and have always purchased a gold-pass. And I look at it from the point-of-view that it isn't just getting the grandstand seat, but it is also providing additional financial support to the airshow organisers to help pay for what is a very expensive operation.

With Wings Over Wairarapa, things have been a bit different. I tend to not put in for leave in January, because I always take leave around Easter weekend, and that usually includes encroaching into school holiday time. Because of that, I don't take leave in January so my workmates who have school-age kids can take leave and spend some time with their kids. It also makes it harder for them to moan about me always taking time off (usually at least a fortnight) around Easter. It's sort of an unwritten agreement that I won't put in for leave over the Christmas-New Year school holidays if you don't ever moan about me hogging leave around Easter. So as a result, I have usually been working when Wings Over Wairarapa has been on and have just taken a lieu day on the Sunday, so have tended to just pay the standard entry fee and mix it with the crowd in the mosh pit. The exception was the last Wings Over Wairarapa when Wellington Anniversary Weekend co-incided with a rostered four-day Friday-Saturday-Sunday-Monday long weekend off duty, so I went for the gold pass option as it was worth doing it for the three days, plus it gave the airshow organisers a bit of additional financial support from me - after all, they had the cost of getting the Mosquito there. And what a magnificent airshow it was too!

So if you think the cost of a gold pass at any airshow is too great for you, then you are free to just pay the standard admission charge and mix it with the crowd.

[Radialicious]

It is sometimes easy to forget that one of the main reasons for holding the Classic Fighters airshow, is to raise money for the planned expansion of the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre and not purely to host an air pageant. The cost alone of running an internationally recognised airshow is significant to say the least and the organisers are put in a difficult position of setting prices to attract the biggest possible crowd, entertain every one of them, pay the bills and hopefully make all the effort worthwhile by afterwards being able to direct a useful amount of $$$ into the next phase of the AHC.
I suspect that the Classic Fighters show is unique in NZ in that its purpose is to both entertain those that attend, and to do its part in making the next stage of the AHC possible.
Personally, I'm really looking forward to it. I found out today that my annual leave has been approved for the week either side of easter. I was at Omaka last weekend and spent three days up on my trusty old stepladder investigating the mysterious starboard engine that was showing signs of 'distress' after her last ground run. I'm dead keen to find the problem, hopefully repair it and have ZK-CPT taxiing again and taking a full part in Classic Freighters 2015.

[baz62]

Yes Al has hit the nail on the head in my opinion. It is incredibly expensive to organise and run an airshow and also use a part of the ticket price to fund the Museum expansion. For me it's a price I'll gladly pay. Hope you find the issue with CPT's engine Al and when you do it's something relatively straight forward to fix.

[Dave Homewood]

Oct 18, 2014 1:14:14 GMT 12 Radialicious said:

I suspect that the Classic Fighters show is unique in NZ in that its purpose is to both entertain those that attend, and to do its part in making the next stage of the AHC possible.

Not quite. The Warbirds Open Days at Ardmore all raise funds for the Warbirds Visitors Centre, which is well and truly developing into an excellent museum in its own right now.

However I totally agree with what you're saying. There are two purposes to the event, and both are excellent.

Best of luck with ZK-CPT.

[andynz]

Hi folks,

I hear all these comparisons and debates about value for money etc, and I guess that is fine because a consumer has every right to look at these factors. For me, I have always loved being at wanaka and being involved in recent years, and thoroughly enjoy being at Omaka too. Great events and I will only ever be at one of these places during Easter.
For the cost of going to see a top band in concert, that lasts 2 hours, you can take the whole family for a day out at one of these shows, I can't see any reason to complain with prices. When you look at the cost of running these events, the work that goes in behind the scenes....


Andy

[typerated]

While I think Omaka is a good airshow I do feel there are areas to be improved.

First I feel the set pieces are a wasted opportunity. The flying is so far away. It appears to allow the pyrotechnics the flying is moved much further to the south. This is especially poor during the WW1 – the aircraft are I feel too small to make as much impact as they could. Like many I find the actors somewhere on the spectrum between annoying and laughable. That the flying display is diminished for a few pathetic fireworks is to say the least strange – I had a visitor with me from overseas and he was disappointed at how far the WW1 aircraft remained from the gold pass stand.
As an aside with the actors – I was stood by the veterans tent at least year’s show when one of actors in full SS officers uniform came walking past. I witnessed the look on one of the veteran’s faces – I would imagine the look was disgust.

The commentary at last year’s show was very poor I thought. Rather than Graham Orphan being the expert part of a duo, a young man took his place. He obviously knew little about aviation I have been to 100s of airshows worldwide and this was one of the worst commentaries I have heard (outside the US). The young man seemed to be trying to make up for his lack of aviation knowledge by repeatedly trying to direct everyone to a sunglasses stall. I resent being a captive audience then being subjected to advertorials. Whatever money the airshow got from advertising during the commentary it wasn’t worth it! Hope they don't ask him back!

I was also disappointed by the FW-190 display. It seemed Frank wanted to keep the aircraft as far away from the crowd as possible (apart from one pass on the Friday). Approaching as if to make a low pass but then pulling up into a high and wide barrel role. Repeatedly. I doubt anybody got any decent photos of it while in the air – just a little dot?. I had seen a FW-190 display at Duxford – totally the opposite – fast, low and close to the crowd pass after pass. I thought it might be a peculiarity of this aircraft but then Frank flew the P-40 in similar fashion. Hopfully he will be on form this next year!

I also hope the prepay ticket debacle is sorted this next show.

That all said I'm looking forward to next show .

[FlyingKiwi]

Although I don't know what the specific requirements on the day were, regarding the Focke-Wulf display keep in mind there are often various limitations in the authorisation of the display regarding what the pilot can and can't do. Also, aside from the fact that different countries obviously have different regulations there could be quite a dramatic difference between the pilot of the Duxford display and Frank with regards to recent experience displaying the FW-190 in airshows, often the guys at the European airshows are flying the same display perhaps a hundred times or more over the airshow season in the same aircraft, whereas Frank's display could well have been the third or fourth time he'd flown the aeroplane at all in a year. Obviously I'm not party to any insider information but when a display seems higher and further away than other comparable ones there is often a lot more to it than just the pilot being personally reluctant to go lower/closer.

[DragonflyDH90]

Oct 25, 2014 13:03:56 GMT 12 typerated said:

While I think Omaka is a good airshow I do feel there are areas to be improved.

First I feel the set pieces are a wasted opportunity. The flying is so far away. It appears to allow the pyrotechnics the flying is moved much further to the south. This is especially poor during the WW1 – the aircraft are I feel too small to make as much impact as they could. Like many I find the actors somewhere on the spectrum between annoying and laughable. That the flying display is diminished for a few pathetic fireworks is to say the least strange – I had a visitor with me from overseas and he was disappointed at how far the WW1 aircraft remained from the gold pass stand.
As an aside with the actors – I was stood by the veterans tent at least year’s show when one of actors in full SS officers uniform came walking past. I witnessed the look on one of the veteran’s faces – I would imagine the look was disgust.

The commentary at last year’s show was very poor I thought. Rather than Graham Orphan being the expert part of a duo, a young man took his place. He obviously knew little about aviation I have been to 100s of airshows worldwide and this was one of the worst commentaries I have heard (outside the US). The young man seemed to be trying to make up for his lack of aviation knowledge by repeatedly trying to direct everyone to a sunglasses stall. I resent being a captive audience then being subjected to advertorials. Whatever money the airshow got from advertising during the commentary it wasn’t worth it! Hope they don't ask him back!

I was also disappointed by the FW-190 display. It seemed Frank wanted to keep the aircraft as far away from the crowd as possible (apart from one pass on the Friday). Approaching as if to make a low pass but then pulling up into a high and wide barrel role. Repeatedly. I doubt anybody got any decent photos of it while in the air – just a little dot?. I had seen a FW-190 display at Duxford – totally the opposite – fast, low and close to the crowd pass after pass. I thought it might be a peculiarity of this aircraft but then Frank flew the P-40 in similar fashion. Hopfully he will be on form this next year!

I also hope the prepay ticket debacle is sorted this next show.

That all said I'm looking forward to next show .

There are a few things I will comment on here from someone who has flown in a few of the shows over the years and has a small understanding of the goings on. I won't elaborate to much further as I can't really be bothered given the tone of the thread.

Please excuse me for a second whilst I climb upon soap box.

It is very expensive and awkward to run a world class airshow that will appeal to the general populace and not just the 'plane spotters' and 'anoraks'. These are the folks who actually make up the numbers and at the end of the day pay for the toilets, food stalls, money machines, fences, fire services, roading plans that everyone would very quickly criticise if they weren't present.
Imagine if after all that planning and organising it rained for two days, 99% of what I have already mentioned still needs to be paid for, so a excess is always required. There is never enough to account for potential problems and any raised goes to the museum to grow and remain a world class attraction to Marlborough and NZ.
Very nearly everyone works on the show for free and it takes a considerable amount of time and resources to achieve a successful show. Quite literally there are people who halt their lives to make this show happen.

The pyro area does not change the display line, it is inside the mine safe distance as laid down by the rules for displays. Low energy aircraft have a closer display line to the crowd (unless in largish formations), high energy are moved out slightly. New Zealand display line restrictions are much closer to the crowd than virtually anywhere else in the world (including Duxford, where I have been several times) IIRC the display line is somewhere near 200m at Duxford and something like 150m in NZ, 75 for low energy aircraft (just going of the top of my head as I can't be bothered looking it up).
The display lines are not set by the airshow but by the CAA to protect the airshow public should something go wrong, does anyone remember Ramstein??
I will however bring up placement of the displays at the next meeting, as mentioned above (and mentioned by one or two others I have spoken with), the displays are sometimes not centered on the gold pass stand and I myself noticed that the WWI display often biases the eastern edge of the airfield a little to much, this is due to it being the pyro location to some degree but I will bring it up.

As to the re-enactors. The vast majority of people I speak with think it is fantastic and very interesting and to the other my comment would be, don't be so precious.
History is history, and I would imagine some of those that complain would also be the first to complain the an aeroplane isn't painted in the correct colour scheme or the size of the lettering on the registration is 1/4" to small.

I'm sure aeromedia or Mustang51 will have something to say here shortly on commentary.

The FW190 is an interesting aeroplane and by all accounts has a few dark corners. The aircraft is a replica (flies nothing like the original as Steve Hinton has mentioned before), has a few known awkward areas and is flown accordingly until more time has been spent shining light on those dark corners. It doesn't get flown a lot and currency in type brings comfort. In recent times I have seen Frank do a few great displays in the aeroplane, comfort is building.

The ticket fiasco is very well realised, in hand and being addressed.

Lastly, running an airshow sounds like a lot of fun. It's not, just ask everyone here who does it. There are great moments but the beer at the end is probably the best bit for a lot of the folk involved but they do it time and time again and it is still one of the best airshows in the world.

Off my soap box now.

[kiwithrottlejockey]

Oct 25, 2014 21:38:58 GMT 12 DragonflyDH90 said:

Lastly, running an airshow sounds like a lot of fun. It's not, just ask everyone here who does it. There are great moments but the beer at the end is probably the best bit for a lot of the folk involved but they do it time and time again and it is still one of the best airshows in the world.

Off my soap box now.

Hear, hear....I have been attending Classic Fighters since the “year dot” (2001) and it has always been a great airshow.

Sure, there were a few deficiencies with the first airshow, and things weren't entirely perfect with the second (it is a learning experience), but by the third airshow (2003), I reckon they were on the verge of equalling Warbirds Over Wanaka, and since then it has been a world-class event.

Nothing and nobody is perfect, but what we have in New Zealand with the three big three-day airshows (Warbirds Over Wanaka, Wings Over Wairarapa and Classic Fighters Omaka) is absolutely amazing when you consider the population base we have in this country. As proven by the number of people who come from the opposite side of the world, time after time to our airshows, let alone the Aussies who cross the Tasman to all three airshows, as well as the TVAL shows at Hood Aerodrome.

Be thankful for what you get to experience in New Zealand....I have been to every Warbirds Over Wanaka (since 1990) and Classic Fighters (since 2001), and most of the Wings Over Wairarapa airshows, plus a few others around the country, yet it still blows me away at just how fortunate we are in this country. I live in Masterton and I know I live less than four kilometres from the biggest collection of airworthy WWI aeroplanes in the world....can you get your head around that? I sometimes struggle to comprehend that fact and every time I visit Hood Aerodrome I pinch myself to ensure I'm not dreaming.

The people who are involved in all of this classic aviation activity in NZ are absolute heros to me. I feel really privileged to live in NZ.

[Dave Homewood]

Well said Ryan and Bruce.

The mind boggles as to how some people see an airshow compared with everyone else. A few years ago I was standing looking at the line up of WWI aircraft at Classic Fighters marvelling at how absolutely amazing it was to see these machines when a bloke next to me started whinging to his wife, "What a rubbish airshow this is.... only one Spitfire... only two Kittyhawks... no Hurricanes.... no Sea Furies..."

Bear in mind there were only two flying Kittyhawks and one flying Spitfire in NZ at this time... and no Sea Furies!! Some people don't appreciate greatness and always think they know better.

[Brett]

Has anybody heard any rumours or gossip about aircraft that may be making their debut at Classic Fighters 2015?

I know that the Chariots of Fire Spitfire is being worked on with a view to having it ready in time, but are there any other restorations in progress which might be planning to front up?

[Dave Homewood]

Oct 25, 2014 13:03:56 GMT 12 typerated said:

The commentary at last year’s show was very poor I thought. Rather than Graham Orphan being the expert part of a duo, a young man took his place. He obviously knew little about aviation I have been to 100s of airshows worldwide and this was one of the worst commentaries I have heard (outside the US).

Wow - Way to encourage a young guy coming through in his first ever big airshow commentary role - NOT! What insensitive words. I heard the commentary over that weekend and it was perfectly fine indeed. Nothing wrong with it or any of the team. I am pretty bewildered as to why you have decided to attack the commentary team. It's not in any way an easy job to undertake, I know this from experience, how many airshows have you commentated at?

What's more, you might be interested to know all the commentators at that show are members of this forum and read this thread. How is this ridiculous statement you've made going to make them feel? If it were me I'd be exceedingly pissed off indeed.

[Mustang51]

Ryan and Bruce....... absolutely spot on ! I have been involved in the organisation of numerous airshows and fly-ins over far too many years over here and you have hit the nail right on the head regarding not only the display lines, the displays themselves but also the ground 'facilities'. As you say the best part of the airshow for the organisers is beer-o'clock on the last day. The vast majority of people involved in airshows are volunteers but the pyramid narrows as it approaches the top and it is down to the Chairperson of the airshow committee to have all the headaches. There are so many things to take into account the first-timer is totally bewildered at the complexity of a one or two day event. Again, as you say, if it rains for the two days all the facilities have to be paid for even if no-one comes through the gate. New Zealand is blessed in its three main shows. I have not yet been able to attend Tauranga but I am told that it is also a well-oiled machine that is attracting more and more people each time - and basically with each of these shows it is all down to the organisers, the volunteers, the sponsors and the merchandising to make them happen. Without that combination there would not be a show on the planet.

One of the criticisms mentioned was the Omaka display line. When I first went to Wanaka in 1998 I was astounded at the displays and how close they were. They seemed to be "just there" in front of you and in those days in Oz taxying aircraft were nowhere near the crowdline. You needed a telephoto lens to see them. In that first Wanaka I could have reach out and touched the aircraft taxying past. The same applies to Omaka and Masterton from my experience. It brings the action closer to the spectator on yet another level

In Australia the display lines seem to be on the other side of the continent sometimes but there is a reason and it is safety. Many Australian display pilots attending a show in NZ for the first time have the same reaction as I did regarding how close the aircraft are - or seem to be. That overwhewlming reaction is that in NZ display pilots seem to have far less restriction and greater latitude than they do here on this side of the ditch. Safety is not compromised but the letter of the NZ CAA is the law and the lines are placed where they are for a reason. As correctly stated, familiarity with a display also breeds a better display and practice/performance is the key. As stated, if you are flying in UK/Europe just imagine how many times you conduct the same performance in a season let alone a year. That opportunity just simply does not exist to anywhere the same extent in NZ or Oz as the shows are a trickle compared with Europe. The real skill of Kiwi and Oz display pilots is knowing what not to do or when not to do it. There is an old airshow adage that is appropriate to display flying - "If you haven't done it before - Don't do it here !" The prudence exhibited by the pilot that may keep the display less 'energetic' but safer is what I respect and as to Frank's FW190 demo, I thought it was great.

Flying Legends at Duxford, the mecca for warbird enthusiasts, has its strict rules and having attended pilot briefings there I can tell you that the British CAA applied display lines are adhered to strictly. They and the airshow organisers will allow no cowboy action at all and if it happens I can guarantee you that the offending pilot and aircraft won't be coming back. The briefing sheet and the physical brief for the Balbo is astounding in itself let alone that for the individual displays and if you still think that over there the pilots are allowed to do what they want just have a word to Keith Skilling or Stu Goldspink for the truth of the matter.

Commentary...... before anyone opens their mouth about it just try it and see just how difficult it is and everyone has to start somewhere. I was lucky. I started in front of a huge crowd at Temora before there were any shows at Temora. A huge crowd of 10 to 12 people just turned up at the airfield one day to see David flying the Spitfire on display practice. Next day they did again and after deciding the Saturday night that we should tell them what was happening we cobbled together a guitar amp and a borrowed microphone all set up on a rolling toolbox and .... only three aircraft were flying. That was my commentary introduction. At Omaka Jason had his first ever experience and he did well. This was not 10/12 people, it was thousands at an international airshow with a long and complex display programme. He was not there by himself, his dad was there on the mike with him and Pete aka Aeromedia is a great announcer. He is world class. Jase did not do the entire show he did portions and again, in my humble opinion, he did well. Just think about it. An announcer has to know the programme, the individual aircraft, their type's history, the individual aircraft's history, the proposed display routine, the pilot and their background, has to know what is happening before each display and after in case one folds due to a mechanical and be able to react to it instantly, has to know what aircraft are holding and where, has to know the take-off and hold sequences, has to listen out on the air-to air and air to ground frequencies while commentating, must be totally situational aware of what is happening both in front of and behind the diaplay line, has to know the emergency procedures for the show, the various emergency plans and contacts for any emergency ( and there are many types of these not just an aircraft 'incident'), has in an emergency to provide guidance and information in a clear, concise and unemotional manner, has to be aware of VIPs and their bios in the event of an impromptu interview, plug the sponsors ( whithout whom the show would not happen), plug the merchandising as they pay handsomly for their positions on the field and thereby financially support the show, and has to sound relaxed at the same time.

Jase did a good job and I hope that through uninformed comment he does not think twice again about getting involved. Oh, and by the way....... he wasn't paid for his commentary. Like me he does it for nothing !

I'll now get down from my soapbox

[johnnyfalcon]

Well said, that man... Somebody give him a beer

[skyhawkdon]

Here here!

[ErrolC]

Trailer:

[Mustang51]

Yee Ha............. I'm there !!!!

[kiwithrottlejockey]

Nov 3, 2014 7:07:49 GMT 12 Mustang51 said:

Yee Ha............. I'm there !!!!

In the commentary box, I hope?

Seriously, Peter....you would have to be one of the best airshow commentators (perhaps even the best) I have heard at an airshow involving classic aeroplanes.

You really know your stuff, but you also know when to shut up and just let the sound of the aeroplanes do the talking.

This is not to say there aren't plenty of other great airshow commentators out there (there are), but you really stand out. And it isn't just my opinion, as I have heard plenty of very favourable comments about you from other “joe-public” people who aren't aviation & airshow enthusiasts.

[Mustang51]

Thank you very much for those comments. I shall be attending but in the capacity of a punter sitting behind the fence and sipping a Sav Blanc while listening to the growl of the FW.190. Pete McQ (and hopefully Jase) will be doing the honours and as I said above he is Great ! Pete and I had the privilege of 'doing' the Mossie first flight show at Ardmore and became instant friends. I would love the opportunity to work with him again somewhere in NZ as I just love being over there and enjoy his company and wit. Again, thanks for the vote of confidence. I am always trying to improve what I do and if there is anytime that I make a goof or whatever I would also appreciate someone telling me..... no-one gets the big cigar every time !

[aeromedia]

Hope we get the opportunity again too mate. Thoroughly enjoyed it.