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Post by obiwan27 on Jan 14, 2015 14:39:18 GMT 12
www.stuff.co.nz/national/64927663/navy-unable-to-board-illegal-fishers-boatsThis is disgraceful. Not the fault of the Navy, as it's quite conceivable that conditions are too dangerous, or being made more dangerous by the vessel's captains for them to board these ships. Evidence of Aunty Helen's decision to scrap the strike wing and the F16 deal coming home to roost??? Probably a fair distance for the A4's to travel, but would F16's have had the range to offer back up to the navy in order to persuade these pirates to cooperate?
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Post by obiwan27 on Jan 14, 2015 14:49:17 GMT 12
For anyone wondering what I am alluding to : www.warbirdsite.com/museumordnance.html"Although the RNZAF Skyhawks were never used for air-to-air combat, they were used on one occasion in the air-to-ground role. On 30 March 1976, two RNZAF Skyhawks, flown by F/Lt Jim Jennings and F/Lt John Herron, were required to head off a Taiwanese squid boat (Kin Nan - see above), which had been caught fishing inside New Zealand’s territorial waters. After the offending boat failed to stop for the naval patrol vessel HMNZS Taupo, Jennings fired warning shots into the sea in front of it. The Taiwanese captain had no problem in understanding the message the Skyhawks delivered and stopped his vessel immediately." Unlike in this instance, no 'backup' so no cooperation. "This incident received world-wide media coverage and sent out a clear message that New Zealand was serious about protecting its borders and would use force if necessary." In today's instance, unless the navy resorts to force, the opposite will be the case. |
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jan 15, 2015 10:03:02 GMT 12
Skyhawks or F-16s could have made it to the Southern Ocean and back??   |
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jan 15, 2015 10:04:03 GMT 12
Put Sea Shepherd on the job.
They could RAM the offending fishing boats.
Or, I'm sure HMNZS Wellington has at least one .50 calibre machinegun.
Opening up on the bridge of the offending ships would stop them.
Perhaps they should pass a .50 calibre machinegun on to Sea Shepherd and leave them to do the job.
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Post by conman on Jan 15, 2015 10:43:39 GMT 12
The Wellington has a recently upgraded 25mm cannon which should be sufficient to get anyone's attention if they are allowed to use it, maybe a couple of rounds of AP threw the bow, although looking at these clunkers it would probably sink them
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jan 15, 2015 12:03:00 GMT 12
maybe a couple of rounds of AP threw the bow, although looking at these clunkers it would probably sink them Sinking them would definitely fix the problem. It would guarantee those ships wouldn't go poaching toothfish again....  |
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Post by phil82 on Jan 15, 2015 12:55:52 GMT 12
The Wellington has a recently upgraded 25mm cannon which should be sufficient to get anyone's attention if they are allowed to use it, maybe a couple of rounds of AP threw the bow, although looking at these clunkers it would probably sink them It would be even more compelling if they strapped a couple of Taiwanese to the gun barrels before firing, that'll learn 'em! These fishing boats are effectively stateless because the flag they flying, that of Equatorial Guines , wherever that is, has disowned them. The real poachers are apparently some Spanish outfit,well known in international circles for criminal activity. We know how to deal with the Spanish: "Sink me the ship Master Gunner",AYE ye Capn": boom! "Done Sir, bring on the French!" |
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Post by No longer identifiable on Jan 15, 2015 15:55:24 GMT 12
I doubt that Skyhawks or F16’s would be a tactical option, even assuming we had them, given that Wellington and Otago both have the Bushmaster cannon (now with new stabilized mounts) which is perfectly capable of putting shots across or through the bows of any fishing boat.
A major difference between the Taiwanese fishing boat and the Korean boats is that the Taiwanese were definitely inside NZ’s EEZ, whereas the 3 Korean boats are not, so NZ has to be very careful on how it handles this situation.
Bruce has the right idea - quietly get Sea Shepherd to use piracy against piracy!
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Post by alanw on Jan 15, 2015 16:23:36 GMT 12
Put Sea Shepherd on the job. They could RAM the offending fishing boats. Pete Pattinson Pirates against pirates, thats the way to go.  Arrgh Capn wants us to ram that vessel, 1st mate put us a quarter mile leeward of that ocean going abomination (yeah I know shades of Moby Dick).......  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2015 16:28:12 GMT 12
A few passes from an Orion with bomb doors open and torpedoes and bombs showing might do the trick.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2015 16:37:03 GMT 12
Hmm, HMNZS Wellington has now pulled out of the situation and are leaving the illegal fishermen to carry on. I have said it before and I'll say it again, what the hell is the point of our Navy? They are meant to be there to protect fisheries and economic interests, dealing with ships breaking the law. All they have done is made NZ look foolish and told every other illegal trawler crew out there that NZ is a soft touch, so come on down boys! Bloody hopeless!
Give the Navy some proper weapons and give them some proper commanders, or stop funding them all together!!
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Post by pepe on Jan 15, 2015 17:04:10 GMT 12
Perhaps the decision not to take more forceful action was a political one? I seem to recollect that the decision to fire warning shots near the Taiwanese boat came from the very top..... one Rt. Hon. R Muldoon.
To lay the blame at the Navy's feet may be too harsh without knowing their ROE's, etc.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2015 18:10:58 GMT 12
The Minister of Defence told the media he'd left any action to the discretion of the vessel's captain, so nope.
The captain could surely have done a lot more than what was done.
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Post by conman on Jan 15, 2015 19:50:34 GMT 12
Sounds like a cop out by Brownlee if you ask me, I'm sure if the ROE allowed persuasive use of firepower the Wellington Captain would have had a go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 20:05:17 GMT 12
I'm not in the navy myself but I'm a little bit confussd by this.. Wasn't the whole point of these OPV's to go out and find boats such as these?
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Post by baronbeeza on Jan 15, 2015 20:32:20 GMT 12
I am sure the Navy would have options each way. As we can all probably guess a little force would have gone a long way to boarding, ready or not.
I would imagine most of the thinking would be based around what happens next.
I think someone is playing to win the war, not just a battle. This may well be a tactical withdrawal, at least I would like to believe that.
Those ships are not going to be getting away with illegal fishing much longer, I think they will have already worked that one out.
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Post by ErrolC on Jan 15, 2015 20:49:06 GMT 12
I'm not in the navy myself but I'm a little bit embarrassed by this.. Wasn't the whole point of these OPV's to go out and find boats such as these? We're a fighting force for goodness sake. I hope the approach would have been different if they were in our EEZ. People are seeming to gloss over the very pertinent fact that they aren't. Do you want navies killing sailors (because there is no point in firing across bows if you aren't willing to take the next step) if they see them doing something that they deem illegal while the ship is in international waters? |
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Post by exkiwiforces on Jan 15, 2015 21:27:05 GMT 12
Can anyone confirm that a Seasprite was embarked on the Wellington for its deployment down south.
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Post by harvard1041 on Jan 15, 2015 23:06:31 GMT 12
Yes got to agree with Baron here, I'd say pull back - go refuel the ship, load up a few CRV7s and an AGM65 or two for the Seasprite - give the crews a couple of days on the range to practice.... meanwhile T-up a P3 or two ( who can operate at these distances) and they can also carry rockets or even 500lb high drag MK82s ..... and then give the politicans a couple of options, including a bit of live firing.
I think most kiwis would be happy enough for their Defence dollar to be spent on a bit of live firing practice 
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figs
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 2 
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Post by figs on Jan 16, 2015 4:24:38 GMT 12
Skyhawks or F-16s could have made it to the Southern Ocean and back?? F16 wiki says they have a maximum range of around 4200km with droptanks so that is nz to australia. To touch on the matter, if they sink the ship with a missile then they would have to rescue the sailors and pay for their food and safe return home.That, the missile cost and risk of a bad media rep on the decision maker's shoulders is probably why they took the passive stance. But yeah it does raise the question what are our navy actually doing/achieving there. |
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