Boeing P-8 - the P3K2 Orion Replacement

[jeffref]

Apr 29, 2017 12:06:23 GMT 12 Barnsey said:

These announcements don't mean that the sale is confirmed. And the P8 is the best aircraft for the job, so good on them.....

www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/new-zealand-p-8a-aircraft-and-associated-support

Media/Public Contact:
[e-mail]
Transmittal No:
17-13
WASHINGTON, Apr. 28, 2017 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to New Zealand for P-8A aircraft and associated support. The estimated cost is $1.46 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on April 27, 2017.

New Zealand has requested the potential sale of up to four (4) P-8A Patrol Aircraft. Each includes: commercial engines, Tactical Open Mission Software (TOMS), Electro-Optical (EO) and Infrared (IR) MX-20HD, AN/AAQ-2(V)1 Acoustic System, AN/APY-10 Radar, ALQ-240 Electronic Support Measures. Also included are eight (8) Multifunctional Information Distribution System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS JTRS); five (5) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assemblies (GLTA) for the AN/AAQ-24(V)N; five (5) System Processors for AN/AAQ-24(V)N; thirty (30) AN/AAR-54 Missile Warning Sensors for the AN/AAQ-24(V)N; ten (10) LN-251 with Embedded Global Positioning Systems (GPS)/Inertial Navigations Systems (EGIs); support equipment; operation support systems; maintenance trainer/classrooms; publications; software, engineering, and logistics technical assistance; foreign Liaison officer support, contractor engineering technical services; repair and return; transportation; aircraft ferry; and other associated training, support equipment and services. The total estimated cost is $1.46 billion.

This proposed sale will enhance the foreign policy and national security of the United States by strengthening the security of a Major Non-NATO ally which has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability within the region. New Zealand is a close ally in the region and an important partner on critical foreign policy and defense issues.

The Government of New Zealand intends to use these defense articles and services to continue its Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (MSA) capability, following retirement of its P-3K maritime patrol aircraft.

The sale will strengthen collective defense and enhance New Zealand’s regional and global allied contributions.

New Zealand has procured and operated U.S. produced P-3 MSA for over 40 years, providing critical capabilities to NATO and coalition maritime operations. New Zealand has maintained a close MSA acquisition and sustainment relationship with the U.S. Navy over this period. The proposed sale will allow New Zealand to recapitalize, modernize and sustain its MSA capability for the next 30 years. As a long-time P-3 operator, New Zealand will have no difficulty transitioning its MSA force to the P-8A and absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support does not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be The Boeing Company, Seattle, WA. Additional contractors include:
Air Cruisers Co LLC
Arnprior Aerospace, Canada
AVOX Zodiac Aerospace
BAE
Canadian Commercial Corporation (CCC)/EMS
Compass David Clark
DLS/NiaSat, Carlsbad, CA
DRS
Exelis, McLean VA
GC Micro, Petaluma, CA
General Electric, UK
Harris
Joint Electronics
Marin Baker
Northrop Grumman Corp, Falls Church, VA
Pole Zero, Cincinnati, OH
Raytheon, Waltham, MA
Raytheon, UK
Rockwell Collins, Cedar Rapids, IA
Spirit Aero, Wichita, KS
Symmetries Telephonics, Farmingdale, NY
Terma, Arlington, VA
Viking
WESCAM

There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately five (5) contractor representatives to support the program in New Zealand.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [e-mail].

It is the best aircraft for the job if you are hunting the Kutsnetzov in the North Atlantic . However if you are trying to locate a missing yacht in high seas and low visibility it will not be as effective as say a P3 Orion or C130 for that matter. Which do you think would be the most likely in peacetime NZ?

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2017 13:04:57 GMT 12 beagle said:

Apr 29, 2017 10:37:16 GMT 12 jeffref said:

If the RNZAF buys the P8 then a different aircraft will be needed for Tactical airlift.

why's that....

Because P-8s can't be configured for tactical airlift?

[jeffref]

Apr 29, 2017 13:14:33 GMT 12 @zacyates said:

Apr 29, 2017 13:04:57 GMT 12 beagle said:

why's that....

Because P-8s can't be configured for tactical airlift?

Needs a slightly longer runway methinks not to mention a sealed one. Would make a nice VIP transport if you omitted the P8 equipment list.

[frankly]

Apr 29, 2017 13:30:20 GMT 12 jeffref said:

Apr 29, 2017 13:14:33 GMT 12 @zacyates said:

Needs a slightly longer runway methinks not to mention a sealed one. Would make a nice VIP transport if you omitted the P8 equipment list.

P-8 comes with a pair of business class seats fitted adjacent the forward hatch as standard

[jeffref]

Apr 29, 2017 13:40:46 GMT 12 frankly said:

Apr 29, 2017 13:30:20 GMT 12 jeffref said:

Needs a slightly longer runway methinks not to mention a sealed one. Would make a nice VIP transport if you omitted the P8 equipment list.

P-8 comes with a pair of business class seats fitted adjacent the forward hatch as standard

Oh goodo- thats Gerry sorted anyway

[Barnsey]

It is the best aircraft for the job if you are hunting the Kutsnetzov in the North Atlantic . However if you are trying to locate a missing yacht in high seas and low visibility it will not be as effective as say a P3 Orion or C130 for that matter. Which do you think would be the most likely in peacetime NZ?

What's the primary military role of a Maritime Surveillance Aircraft...? What metrics can you supply that proves your claim that the P3 or C130 is better at peacetime surface surveillance than a P8? Are you suggesting that there is no need for military roles for the P3K replacement?
It's a useful adjunct that a MSA can also do search and rescue, but that is not the primary role of 5 Sqn - sure, it's currently the most publicly acknowledged one day-to-day, but it's not the primary one. So unless the Government has decided that the RNZAF is to be reduced to a SAR organisation, the P8 is the premier MSA for now and into the future.

[jeffref]

What is the primary role of a Maritime Surveillance aircraft. Now thats tricky. The P8 is primarily configured to locate and presumably try to sink Russian surface vessels and with optional drones to try to do the same with submarines. Now how many Russian warships have you seen down thisaway lately?? Now I have no doubt that the P8 can probably locate Kutsnetsov and using Harpoon or its replacement damage or sink it but frankly it is going to struggle against submarines since AIP means that no longer will you be able to detect a snort by RDF nor will you be able to "smell" diesel emissions.
As far as dropping sonobuoys go a RN SSN driver said the only time he was detected he was "very close". They are also only useful in the layer they are set normally on the surface. If the U Boats (whoops) go below that layer they are useless.Hunting submarines has changed since WW2 and frankly aircraft are no longer an answer.
As far as effectiveness of the P3 and P8 in SAR goes they should ask the USN. A returning P3 was asked to help US Navy P8's and USCG C130s to help search for a missing boat off Hawaii. Guess who found the boat?
Premier MSA? Bollocks. The P8 got the US contract because it had better influence in Congress. The USN tried twice to get more P3s but were denied.
NZ has commitments to patrolling one of the largest oceanic areas in the world. That is why we need a MSA not to patrol for non-existent Russian warships. If the poo ever did hit the fan it would all be over before you got MinDef out of bed anyway.

[typerated]

www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/new-zealand-p-8a-aircraft-and-associated-support

that looks like that then

[gibbo]

Apr 29, 2017 15:21:48 GMT 12 jeffref said:

What is the primary role of a Maritime Surveillance aircraft. Now thats tricky. The P8 is primarily configured to locate and presumably try to sink Russian surface vessels and with optional drones to try to do the same with submarines. Now how many Russian warships have you seen down thisaway lately?? Now I have no doubt that the P8 can probably locate Kutsnetsov and using Harpoon or its replacement damage or sink it but frankly it is going to struggle against submarines since AIP means that no longer will you be able to detect a snort by RDF nor will you be able to "smell" diesel emissions.
As far as dropping sonobuoys go a RN SSN driver said the only time he was detected he was "very close". They are also only useful in the layer they are set normally on the surface. If the U Boats (whoops) go below that layer they are useless.Hunting submarines has changed since WW2 and frankly aircraft are no longer an answer.
As far as effectiveness of the P3 and P8 in SAR goes they should ask the USN. A returning P3 was asked to help US Navy P8's and USCG C130s to help search for a missing boat off Hawaii. Guess who found the boat?
Premier MSA? Bollocks. The P8 got the US contract because it had better influence in Congress. The USN tried twice to get more P3s but were denied.
NZ has commitments to patrolling one of the largest oceanic areas in the world. That is why we need a MSA not to patrol for non-existent Russian warships. If the poo ever did hit the fan it would all be over before you got MinDef out of bed anyway.

The RNZAF have asked for more than just a MSA however & that now looks like what they might be getting... something that can step up a significant level if a combat tasking is required (with suitable coalition support).  I've seen earlier discussion suggesting the USN feel the P8 can do SAR quite well, and operate low down ok, but that for them that is not their primary role - that's the domain of the USCG.  I think there's been confusion between what the P8 can do vs what it is being asked to do - USN & USCG have very different requirements.  RAAF, RAF P8's will fill a role more like whatever the RNZAF get.

Maybe that P3 found the missing vessel because it was allocated the search areas the vessel was actually in!?!


p.s. Need to move this to the P3K2 replacement thread now I think.

[gibbo]

Apr 29, 2017 16:25:44 GMT 12 typerated said:

www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/new-zealand-p-8a-aircraft-and-associated-support

that looks like that then

Technically this is not confirmation of an order and only in January Brownlee suggested a decision unlike ly this year so this may be more about keeping the option open.

[jeffref]

If the plan is for them do what the USN, RAAF and RAF do then we will not see them operate in NZ. As far as low level operation is concerned you can expect more rebuilds earlier rather than later as the 737 was never intended to go low and slow in fine conditions let alone storms. No problem for the USN as they have a gigabuck budget. The NZ role is closer to the USCG since we have no similar independent operation. I understand the area off Hawaii had already been searched and the P3 had been asked to keep an eye out.
So getting back to the original thread A C130J with a palletised load can do the USCG mission, the US Navy antiSUW and antiSub mission, can operate as a tanker and do the Tactical mission as well as combat tasking and other bits and pieces which is what this thread started as. You have this huge space where you could even have a game of pool or two if you wanted.

[Calum]

The P-8 is the only (IMHO) logical choice so it's not surprising (to me at least)

[wakiwi]

given that theres only 4, does that open the door to something like the c-295, to do some of the inshore stuff,

[avenger]

There's more on Stuff news tonite.

www.stuff.co.nz/national/92045512/new-zealand-considers-purchasing-new-boeing-military-aircraft-from-us

[isc]

The Indian Air Force intend to use the P-8 at low altitude, and their aircraft will be/are fitted wit a MAD boom. The P-8 has different wings that a 737, and a strengthened fuselage, hense the lack of windows.
Why can there not be a TV search system for SAR, you cold probably see more that way that using a Mk-1 Eye Ball direct. isc

[beagle]

Apr 29, 2017 13:14:33 GMT 12 @zacyates said:

Apr 29, 2017 13:04:57 GMT 12 beagle said:

why's that....

Because P-8s can't be configured for tactical airlift?

no fkn kidding

[gibbo]

Apr 29, 2017 20:37:03 GMT 12 avenger said:

There's more on Stuff news tonite.

www.stuff.co.nz/national/92045512/new-zealand-considers-purchasing-new-boeing-military-aircraft-from-us

And 5,4,3,2,1... cue...Labour & Greens tell us about how they'll reverse any such purchase and put the $$$ into social services (yeah $1.4Bn will get you a few months welfare cheques then ...gone!)

[gibbo]

Apr 29, 2017 16:53:38 GMT 12 jeffref said:

If the plan is for them do what the USN, RAAF and RAF do then we will not see them operate in NZ. As far as low level operation is concerned you can expect more rebuilds earlier rather than later as the 737 was never intended to go low and slow in fine conditions let alone storms. No problem for the USN as they have a gigabuck budget. The NZ role is closer to the USCG since we have no similar independent operation. I understand the area off Hawaii had already been searched and the P3 had been asked to keep an eye out.
So getting back to the original thread A C130J with a palletised load can do the USCG mission, the US Navy antiSUW and antiSub mission, can operate as a tanker and do the Tactical mission as well as combat tasking and other bits and pieces which is what this thread started as. You have this huge space where you could even have a game of pool or two if you wanted.

Think it simply comes down to NZDF wanting the a/c to perform the same role as everyone else's P8's (ie: far more than just MSA) and given we intend to operate with & integrate seemlessly with those of our allies that we need to buy kit that is set up from the get-go to do just that.  Otherwise NZDF will be looking to get another manufacturer (LM) to put together a mission systems package that is likely to require substantial upfront integration costs - costs the NZDF needs to avoid wherever possible.


I appreciate operating down low has it's issues but it will only operate low when it has to.  Apparently the P8 is not only quite capable down low, but far more comfortable than the P3 if this link is to be believed...
www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-p-8a-poseidon-adventure-flying-and-fighting-the-poseidon/

“...The employment will be very similar [to the P-3],” Buck counters. “A myth that I’d like to bust is that the P-8 is not able to fly low. This initial lot of aircraft with the Mk.54 torpedo system will fly a very similar profile to the P-3. They’ll go down low. We fly the P-8 in a very similar flight regime to the P-3, and we will employ the Mk.54 from low altitude.”

How does it fly down in the waves?
  “It’s quite a bit more comfortable,” Boron says. “With the [more] flexible wings, the crew isn’t getting bounced around as much as in the P-3. It flies very smoothly down low...”
 

[dutchkiwi]

Apr 29, 2017 20:08:02 GMT 12 wakiwi said:

given that theres only 4, does that open the door to something like the c-295, to do some of the inshore stuff,

Interesting indeed is that four P-8 could replace the six Orions, but pretty sure there will be another smaller aircraft needed to search off shore and coastal area, as the P-8 is far too expensive to use in close to shore Search & Rescue missions. A few C-295 would fit well, if the AF is also buying a few for transport.

[beagle]

There will be. Kingairs.