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Post by grgrimmer on Oct 2, 2015 15:38:49 GMT 12
Does anyone know of a twin engined aircraft with Junker engines that was in NZ prior to 1965... maybe even way back in the 1930's (or even earlier)?
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Post by komata on Oct 2, 2015 16:11:02 GMT 12
It's an interesting question, and, AFAIK, no Junkers products have ever flown in NZ, although I will happily be corrected in this.
However, from your question, the aircraft description and the quite-specific cut-off date, it would seem that you may have been told that such an aircraft actually did appear here. So that we can help you more and clear-up this mystery, are you able to provide us with more details as to what you have been told?
Thanks.
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Post by grgrimmer on Oct 2, 2015 16:32:51 GMT 12
Two engines were come upon up in the South Island mountains in 1965. Due to it being nearly dusk and the Wx was closing in, time did not permit for anything more than just prise a plate off one of the engines. I have seen a photo of this plate and it is a Junkers emblem. Obviously, a twin engined aircraft with Junkers engines had to have crashed there to enable these engines to get there, so my guess is it is possibly a WW2 amphibious plane launched from a submarine as per the Japanese example up in the Auckland/Coromandel area. In saying this, I'm hoping there is a more easy explanation... Gavin www.findlostaircraft.co.nz
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 2, 2015 17:53:58 GMT 12
Wasn't there a Dornier flying boat in NZ in the 1920's or 30's? Did it crash?
Fascinating find if it is indeed a German crash site. I don't think the Germans operated any twin engined aircraft from the U-boats that visited NZ.
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Post by Bruce on Oct 2, 2015 18:08:34 GMT 12
I think you are thinking of the Dornier Libelle flying boats that came to NZ in the 1920s (One crashed, the other was exported to Fiji) however they had Seimens engines. From what I gather, the German Navy submarine - based observation aircraft were Focke Angelis Gyro Gliders or Flettner helicopters which had Bramo engines. Nothing twin engined. There were a number of Junkers types operated in Australia and New Guinea. I had considered the possibility of the 1909 Mystery Airship sighted around the south Island, however that was before the Junkers company started manufacturing engines.
In the context they were found, could they possibly be related to some kind of industrial or agricultural plant? e.g. Gold mining, sawmilling etc? postwar perhaps someone imported a couple for such purposes (Cheap war surplus) but discarded them?
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Post by grgrimmer on Oct 2, 2015 19:40:52 GMT 12
I'd imagine that would be unlikely Bruce, as they were up just below the snow line.
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Post by The Red Baron on Oct 2, 2015 19:42:24 GMT 12
Junkers were huge in stationary diesel engines between the wars.Junkers himself was one of the original pioneers of diesel engines. They were also used in tractors and trucks,they were also license built by companies all over the world.
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Post by Bruce on Oct 2, 2015 20:24:18 GMT 12
In exploring gold mine areas I've seen some pretty massive bits of equipment in very odd places.... complete boilers etc very deep in the bush. I think its more likely than than a mystery German aircraft.
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Post by grgrimmer on Oct 2, 2015 21:26:34 GMT 12
Yes, I will have to find out more about the location of where they were seen....
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Post by craig on Oct 3, 2015 6:57:52 GMT 12
I think you are thinking of the Dornier Libelle flying boats that came to NZ in the 1920s (One crashed, the other was exported to Fiji) however they had Seimens engines. From what I gather, the German Navy submarine - based observation aircraft were Focke Angelis Gyro Gliders or Flettner helicopters which had Bramo engines. Nothing twin engined. There were a number of Junkers types operated in Australia and New Guinea. I had considered the possibility of the 1909 Mystery Airship sighted around the south Island, however that was before the Junkers company started manufacturing engines. In the context they were found, could they possibly be related to some kind of industrial or agricultural plant? e.g. Gold mining, sawmilling etc? postwar perhaps someone imported a couple for such purposes (Cheap war surplus) but discarded them? Re this airship. As a kid I read an article about this flying object in our local paper (Tapanui). Seemingly it was seen by various different and reputable people over a number of days in the Blue Mountain region (West Otago). The drawings they produced were very similar to an airship. But this is the first time I have heard another reference to it. Was it seen in other Southern locations also? Do you have any more to add to this story
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 3, 2015 7:42:09 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 3, 2015 8:01:49 GMT 12
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Post by craig on Oct 3, 2015 11:33:53 GMT 12
So is there any record of "the Germans" launching airships from ships, as has been postulated in a number of the articles?
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Post by ErrolC on Oct 3, 2015 11:58:12 GMT 12
No record, or plausible possibilities. See historian Brett Holman's Airminded.org blog.
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 3, 2015 12:14:23 GMT 12
The so-called airship mystery is well-covered on pages 138-140 of the first volume of my A Passion For Flight trilogy, including this side-bar item based on an interview I had with one of the unwitting contributors to the saga:
‘FIRE BALLOONS’ OVER CANTERBURY
Among those making toy Montgolfier type hot-air balloons about the time of the ‘airship mystery’ were Christchurch teenagers George Bolt and Bill Angus. Small ones were made at first then larger ones as they gained more experience and confidence. Material for the balloon’s envelope was readily available in the form of six-foot wide, tough tissue paper that protected rolls of linoleum used in Bolt’s father’s furnishing trade. These ‘fire balloons’, recalled Angus, were
up to about 20 feet in diameter. We made them from the tissue paper taken out of the inside of the rolls of linoleum, and this was very good tissue paper. It was six feet wide. We didn’t put any gores in. By gores, I mean no triangular pieces to make it go into a round shape. At the bottom we put a piano wire ring, and across that ring we had another piano wire cage of wire for carrying waste which was soaked in kerosene.
Setting the fuel alight, which burned brightly against the night sky, generated plenty of heat accompanied by a considerable amount of smoke, and the ‘flat’ balloon soon filled out into something like a balloon shape. With larger balloons, Angus and Bolt found it necessary to have a few helping hands around to keep the balloon in position during inflation, and to prevent it from making a premature lift off – the ‘pull’ being quite noticeable.
We’d hold this balloon – a 20-foot one had quite a pull – and we would keep heating the balloon up with more kerosene from underneath. When we sent it off, of course, it was really hot, and there was quite a reserve of power in it with the waste soaked kerosene still burning. We launched some from the sand hills when the wind would carry them out to sea over the estuary, or from Opawa when they would frequently drift down along the line of the Heathcote River and rise up on reaching the Sumner estuary before heading off in the direction of Cust or Oxford. We could track these things for a long time. We didn’t know that we were causing any of this [‘airship mystery’] sensation, but apparently we were.
Errol
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Post by komata on Oct 3, 2015 12:57:12 GMT 12
Gavin
FWIW: As whomever imported these items would have required Import Licences and had to file Customs Declarations, I expected to find information concerning them within Archives NZ files; Archives NZ being the repository of (almost all) all NZ-Government-related correspondence and material. Using what you have told us so far, I did a search using 'Junkers' as a search parameter, following this with 'Junkers Engines' and 'Junkers Diesel engines'. Surprisingly, nothing was found.
As you have seen a photograph of the builders plate, this now presents us with a problem as to exactly what and where your informant saw.
You state that '...Two engines were come upon up in the South Island mountains in 1965. Due to it being nearly dusk and the Wx was closing in, time did not permit for anything more than just prise a plate off one of the engines'.
I note BTW, that you do not mention that these were aero engines, so must assume that they were / are in fact some sort of substantial internal combustion engine /s.
The location is unusual as it implies (in the absence of an 'aviation' orientation) that 'whatever was found' was related to some sort of industrial operation - a point made previously by Bruce. As no-one (normally) moves very large pieces of machinery into remote areas without an industrial motive, there would seem to be no other explanation. That they are '...In the South Island Mountains' would be consistent with either a timber-milling operation (unlikely as the items were 'just below the snow line', and millable-trees don't normally grow that far up; it's too cold), or, if that isn't the case, some sort of mining operation. At that height (3-4,000 ft?) an underground gold mine seem to be the most likely possibility. As very few 'high-level' gold mining operations took place in NZ, the location and company-concerned would be relatively-easy to pinpoint.
To enable those interested to search for and suggest further possibilities, information as to where these mysterious machines were located would be appreciated. If , in addition, you could perhaps provide us with a copy of the 'plate photo you have seen, that would enable those who can, to follow-after the necessary serial numbers, and to try to learn more about these items from that standpoint.
Looking forward to your reply with interest. Again, thanks for the question.
Thanks.
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Post by grgrimmer on Oct 7, 2015 19:55:48 GMT 12
Hi Everyone, I've been away (again) and only got back again today. I managed this morning to get to talk to one of the people that came forward with this plate and information, and found out more. Komata, there unfortunately are no numbers on the plate - just the Junkers emblem on a triangular plate and he said it was attached to the side of the engine block. The Jumo diesel appears to only have it on the front of the engine. If you have a look at this link, on this Junkers 211, you can see a similar emblem plate about midway on the block: www.airventure.de/tipps_zentralfinnisches_luftfahrtmuseum/Museum_Finnland_Junkers_Jumo_Triebwerk.jpgI'm still in the process of finding out more, - this time via email so as to have a written record, but he says given the location, the only way it could possibly be industrial engines was if they fell out of an aeroplane as they were too high up the side of the mountain in a small valley (if I remember right). Said the valley was full of large boulders, and they only discovered the first engine when he sat down on what he thought was a moss covered boulder. The second engine was in very bad condition - smashed up and half buried in the ground about 50 metres away from the first motor. They never actually thought to look for the crankshafts (to see if there were propellor remains) due to all the moss over them. He remembers an aluminium panel that had bulges in it, so I guess that was the sump of the motor as shown in the given link above. When I find out more, I'll let you know... Anyone keen on mountaineering?
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Post by nuuumannn on Oct 8, 2015 13:10:39 GMT 12
Most definitely not. German airship engines were largely Maybach or Benz built and apart from the Parseval non-rigids they didn't build airships that were small enough to be carried aboard a ship halfway around the world. Incidentally, the first time an airship operated from a ship at sea was the British non-rigid S.S.Z.59 landing aboard HMS Furious in the Firth of Forth in 1918. Airships had been towed by ships before then, but none had landed aboard one.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 9, 2015 12:20:39 GMT 12
So it must have been aliens then? Or mass hysteria.
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Post by The Red Baron on Oct 9, 2015 13:46:45 GMT 12
I'm waiting for the "Hitlers Mystery Plane Found In the Southern Alps" headlines.
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