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Post by zknadpukeko on Apr 6, 2017 22:57:40 GMT 12
I'm also in with railway preservation, and if people had decided that larger locomotives should only be preserved, we'd only have small shunt locos and whatever, while large mainline steam and diesel locoes of the past would not exist. However in most cases there is more than one of each of the larger machines to delight people who remember them and also for the younger generations. How much space does the larger locomotive require for display compared to a 747? Collectively, a lot, and many of them are still in operating order, even mainline certified for occasional trips and have all the infrastructure to service them. Not cheap rest assured, but can be done. A vacant lot in downtown CHCh would be a good spot, with the plane used as accommodation, like the 742 in Arlanda Sweden www.jumbostay.com/. Retired jetliners have had a number of uses, there's a 727-200 recovered from the Southend scrapyard now a novel conference centre in Denmark (ex TAA machine). In Philippines, a 737-200 as a restaurant. Just takes a bit of imagination outside the square. |
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Post by zknadpukeko on Apr 6, 2017 23:00:05 GMT 12
Ideally you'd want to get someone on board like the Auckland Airport company. Have them all flown in there and parked up. Have it all under cover and the entire complex accessed from the terminal. They certainly have the foot traffic/visitor numbers on site already to justify it. The time to recover that DC8 would have been when it was parked up after its last flight? Given the fact the airport doesn't have enough space for its current aircraft movements, and it's high $ value per square meter of terminal floor space, I don't think they'll want a 747 in the departures areas/food hall. All cool ideas though. I recall there was a plan to put Concorde G-BOAB in one of the Heathrow terminals a few years ago. One preserved just near the airport with a cafe and museum inside would go well. An A300 in Belgium done as such. |
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Post by zknadpukeko on Apr 6, 2017 23:07:17 GMT 12
The transport and storage would be a huge task, what about getting just the cockpits, a bit of a compromise, but still retaining some history? Perhaps displayed alongside an engine? Like cutting the front off a classic car and that's it, an unacceptable 'compromise' that would only be a last last last resort. Gladly QFOM didn't consider that idea with the Connie at Manila and decided to preserve the aircraft in it's full glory, eventually. One of Pauls videos covers moving large aircraft including the KLM 747-300 to Lelystad, including barge. They can be sectioned down as he describes. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2017 10:37:26 GMT 12
I don't really have a dog in this hunt at all, so I am not taking any sides, but I seriously think you should not compare this venture with the Qantas Founders Museum, or HARS, etc. For one thing there is a shitload more money available in Australia for heritage projects then there is here in NZ. Plus they took flying aircraft for their museums, so already in great condition. And Qantas Founders, as I understand it, is in a very dry environment, unlike anywhere in NZ.
And look at MOTAT, one of the biggest and best funded museums in NZ, and even they have been struggling to get funding and support to complete the restoration of the Solent which is already saved and under cover. Money does not just grow on trees for these projects here in NZ.
Having recently looked at the Fokker Friendship up close that is with the Ferrymead Aeronautical Society, the challenges there in maintaining what is not even a large airliner has proven almost too much. It's in much worse condition than the average person imagines. I was stunned. Denys Jones and his team are doing their best to save it, but it's an epic job ahead of them. And it's indoors already!
I just wonder if there will be sufficient funds to bring home, restore, house and maintain these much larger aeroplanes. I hope Paul achieves what he has set out to do, but I think he's going to have a huge task ahead.
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Post by madmac on Apr 7, 2017 11:24:46 GMT 12
There is another point, even if it isn't put undercover, there is something to save, where as if we didn't save it because we had no where to put it undercover then that is a final. One would point to the Viscount, Lancaster, Sunderland & Solent there was not cover available when they went out of service, yes it has had a large impact on the airframes but we do still have them. So what you don't go and see them because it was a foolish idea at the time.
It should also be noted that not all airframes are equal in there ability to stand being out in the weather.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 12:12:57 GMT 12
ahh the rose -tinted spectacles of someone who has no experience of aircraft engineering, preservation and restoration.... The good folk of Qantas Founders and others must have had the same alleged spectacles apparently, but they seemed to get somewhere, hence the actual results rather than slamming it as a no goer. (...) The Connie from Manila and the 732 that sat beside the DC-8 are good examples of machines that sat long term in humid heat, so based on that there's a story here so little ole me with no aviation expertise can figure it. As far as I'm aware the QFM has a solid base of former - current? - aircraft engineers. I very much doubt Bruce was referring to them! I've had less than two years of on-the-job training and I'm under no illusions that I'm in way over my head with a simple(!) Fletcher - the idea of non-aviation types disassembling four classic airliners makes me shudder! How much space does the larger locomotive require for display compared to a 747? Collectively, a lot, and many of them are still in operating order I didn't ask about collectively. That's on me for not making that clear. I find it hard to see the space needed to store, restore, preserve and display a steam loco as being anywhere near the scale needed for even a 737, let alone the DC-10 or 747. I recall there was a plan to put Concorde G-BOAB in one of the Heathrow terminals a few years ago. How's that going? The plan (near, not in, Terminal 5) was first mooted in 2003, but not much has happened apart from its interior getting stripped for Brooklands' example, a couple of moves, and now it's in a carpark. A quick Google shows countless posts concerned, some even disgusted, at her current "unloved" state. Concorde was a phenomenon, a true household name. If you're appealing to the man in the street the 747 and possibly DC-10 will be about the only ones they'd know. I can't help but think any appeal to the NZ public would be facing a hard, uphill road - I have the feeling that even among enthusiasts it's hard to get excited enough to donate/volunteer with some of these aircraft. Suggesting preserving only the nose of a veteran airliner is the same as preserving only the front half of a classic car is, like mention of the Aussie operations, a completely unfair and unrealistic comparison. If anything, the idea of bisecting a classic car seems more difficult than restoring the entire machine. Again: scale. Dave's onto something with the comparison to the Australian ventures. It's a totally different environment - economically and in terms of climate. Plus again I mention space - where in NZ is Paul and team suggesting can afford the same space as Albion Park or Longreach? As for using the example of Viscount in Christchurch and the Sunderland and Solent at Western Springs: weren't those already in the country, and the same city as the destination museum/group, when they went into preservation? The Lancaster is different as it was flown in by the operator who donated it and, apart from the Electra, that's not possible here so don't compare the two. As with Dave, I've no dog in this fight. Ask anyone here and they'll tell you I'm a dyed-in-the-wool, die-hard supporter and enthusiast of heritage aviation. I'm interested in this campaign and I admire the vision but I can't help but be realistic and play devil's advocate when I have questions. If the space and money can be found, go for it! |
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jeffref
Flight Lieutenant
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Post by jeffref on Apr 30, 2017 10:00:49 GMT 12
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Post by Bruce on Apr 30, 2017 12:03:43 GMT 12
Drawing pictures of a museum is the easy bit...
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on May 2, 2017 20:57:12 GMT 12
From an aviation enthusiast's perspective, I'd rather see a project to repatriate ZK-BBJ than attempting to bring back huge-birds which are likely to simply corrode away.
Okay, I have a personal attraction to BBJ, because I flew in her as a kid when she was Skyliner “Gisborne” with NAC, then I flew in her again years later when she was the last airworthy DC-3 topdresser with Fieldair, based rather appropriately at Gisborne.
But considering her history with the RNZAF (from brand new), NAC, Fieldair, Fieldair Freight, etc, she is a REAL historic Kiwi bird.
One really has to wonder how a seasonal daily return service utilising a restored BBJ would work out (say, Labour Weekend until the end of April); flying due west from Christchurch across the Canterbury Plains and foothills into the Southern Alps, then turning to port over the Tasman Saddle and descending down the Tasman Glacier Valley to a landing at Mount Cook Airport; spending an hour or so on the ground there before carrying on to Queenstown, then returning to Christchurch via the same route. Air Chathams has shown there is a market for nostalgia DC-3 services on scheduled airline routes with their weekend service between Auckland and Whakatane. Imagine a similar service between Christchurch and Queenstown via Mount Cook. If marketed properly, especially to overseas tourists, I reckon it would be a real winner.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 10:13:32 GMT 12
In fairness to BBJ (and I totally understand where you're coming from with regards to that airframe's history), BOBH highlights the lack of preserved early jets (and Electra) in New Zealand. There are a few DC-3s and C-47s scattered about the place but the next era is unrepresented apart from the Viscount and Friendship at Ferrymead.
The news article was heavily focused on the DC-8 - perhaps focusing on a single type, even as an initial stage, may be more practical?
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Post by madmac on May 3, 2017 12:10:47 GMT 12
Don't forget Ferrymead has the cockpit of Lockheed L.188 Electra ZK-TEA.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 3, 2017 12:45:15 GMT 12
And MOTAT has the Solent, Locheed 10a, and Rapide plus some DC8 parts and a Boeing 747 simulator. There are two flying Rapides that are ex-airliners, and the Fox Moths, the Dragon and the Dragonfly. Plus there's a Boeing 727 preserved at Woodbourne. And an Eagle Air Bandeirante at Tauwhare, Cambridge. Plus several Metroliners in paddocks. Airliners are actually reasonably well represented. Just not the large jets, and I'd have thought that would be for obvious reasons.
It would be nice to see a DC8, DC10, and B.747, particularly as I have never seen the two Douglas jets, preserved in New Zealand but I really do wonder if it is possible. Other such ventures to preserve large aircraft in this country have failed - Empire, Sunderland, Catalina, etc all scrapped only a few years after being "saved".
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:58:12 GMT 12
madmac, I had forgotten!
Dave - I had forgotten the Bandit and Metros, but the Solent and other MOTAT machines are earlier than I was referring to: the generation/s after the DC-3 in postwar airline service.
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Post by denysjones on May 3, 2017 20:45:35 GMT 12
The logistics of shipping these sized aircraft by sea would be considerable. Let's just quickly look at the DC-8.
For those not used to imperial measurements sorry but shipping talks in feet and in what follows the ' mark reads as feet and " as inches.
Once you break the DC-8 down then first you have to make up transport frames to locate the pieces on that won't fit in a standard container and that will be the two wings and the fuselage at least so there's engineering design and costs as any shipping line will want to know the load is sound and safe for handling.
Then you've somehow got to get these long special structures out of the airport at Manaus to the local port and then down the Amazon to a sea port and from there most likely ship to the USA and there tranship onto a round the world service that comes to NZ. So that will most likely involve two shipping lines for deep sea and some internal Brazilian operator for the Amazon plus trucks cranes etc. Heaven help you if they have to be road transported between ports to catch different deep sea operators.
Now the fuselage of the 8 will be something around 150' long and that will be the equivalent of 4 40' container slots long on a ship. But the diameter is 147" which is just over 12' and container ship slots are 8'6" wide so the fuselage would end up centred on one slot but overhanging another either side of that so its footprint on the ship would be that of 12 40' units which is what it would be costed on.
Each wing will similarly occupy something around the 4 40' slots (that's a bit of a guess as I don't know the maximum wing chord and assume the wing travels flat) so we're now up for 20 40' slot spaces.
Then depending on how much else of the aircraft is extant (it doesn't look like its got engines or undercarriage left now in the photo from the latest article) let's allow another 10 40'slot spaces for other stuff so we're up to 30 40' slots.
Where it really becomes ugly is that container ships aren't geared up to handle many if any such non standard shipments. So they would have to carry these items as the top stow on deck but then that would only be a goer if they were the last on first off of the voyage because the lifting on and off of top stow units sometimes has to happen to facilitate access to units below them (For stability and other special reasons somtimes units that get off early in a voyage have to be stowed lower down the ship).
If these large units don't suit that then the container shipping lines generally don't want to carry them as it is too much hassle and grief to them as they run to tight time schedules. Also if they can't carry cargo below decks that affects ship stability and they'll also want to charge for the unused space they incur as if it was carrying cargo. Also each lift on and off is going to require specialist craning and again more costs and the indulgence of the port authorities and probably customs where it happens.
That then means you need to somehow hook up with special shipping lines that carry non container cargo and trust me those generally come with premium pricing nor do they travel the same general routes container lines do!
When we brought the Electra nose out from the UK to Ferrymead we faced these sorts of issues with just a 20' flat rack with mere inches of overhang both sides. We found a suitable shipping line but had to truck the unit to Hull to catch the ship where the rack was then sat on deck tucked in behind the superstructure in a null space on the deck. Then at Auckland it sat top stow on a ship to Lyttelton.
Given all these complexities I'd be astounded if they could pull this off for just one of these aircraft they're talking about let alone the DC-10 or 747 and so I can't believe they can have any realistic idea at this time on transport costs. Likewise I can't believe the cost estimate for the building given what I know a 28 metre square 10 metre tall building to house a Viscount is valued at.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 9:47:09 GMT 12
That's very informative Denys, thanks for sharing. I had the merest inkling of the challenges of transporting an unairworthy airliner but this is very helpful.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 11, 2017 20:45:44 GMT 12
This evening I recorded a very interesting interview with Paul Brennan of "Bring Our Birds Home" for the Wings Over New Zealand Show. This will be published tomorrow. It's well worth a listen to answer a lot of the questions people have about the project.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 9:01:23 GMT 12
Thanks Dave and Paul, I'm keen to hear more! Good stuff. I'll be sharing the link on Facebook once it's up so interested folk can have a listen.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 12, 2017 11:25:11 GMT 12
Wings Over New Zealand Show Episode 145 features Paul Brennan as guest, talking about the ambitious "Bring Our Birds Home" project. Paul represents a group of airline history fans who are aiming to repatriate hopefully five important aircraft that once flew with our national airline, Air New Zealand. They are a Lockheed Electra, a Douglas DC-8, a Douglas DC-10, a Boeing 737 and a Boeing 747. Paul talks about their current locations and conditions, the plans in place to hopefully secure and rescue them, and the processes that they hope to utilise to get the aircraft back to New Zealand. The ultimate goal is to have them all restored and on public display in a city museum, but the current aim is to ensure they are not scrapped and lost forever as in most cases each is the last of their fleet that served in Air New Zealand service. Paul also talks about his “AirSide Radio” podcast, which he produces with Martin Noakes. Here is the show page link:www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/WONZShow/2017/05/bring-our-birds-home/And listen directly by clicking here: |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 20:06:05 GMT 12
I've just listened to the WONZS episode with Paul and I feel I have a much greater understanding of BOBH - now that I know it's purely a transportation exercise, not including preservation like I originally thought, it seems a lot more achievable. It was genuinely exciting to hear about the idea of the Electra flying into NZ - I'd gladly donate to make that happen and to see an Electra in Kiwi skies. I had a little chill when I heard that ideaspoken aloud.
It was also great to hear about the other 747 and 737 options. I for one would feel no different seeing an ex-ANZ 747-400 than a -200.
I worry about the fate of the various airframes once they're in New Zealand and Paul and the team are out of the picture, though. It seems like BOBH is all about getting the airframes back to New Zealand and leaving them for someone else to step up for the preservation, restoration and display process. That's a bit concerning when the aim is to prevent their destruction. I know from experience what it's like to recover an aircraft and have absolutely no plan in place beyond "it's in my hands and no-one can do anything with it but me".
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Post by denysjones on May 20, 2017 21:02:38 GMT 12
Good comment Zak,
Have just spent another afternoon scrubbing corrosion from the port u/c bay of BXG and all I can find myself thinking it is "this is a tidly F27 having spent 30 years outside in the climate of Christchurch not a DC-8 having sat over that time in the sticky climes of Manaus".
Noble as Paul's ideals may be but I have to say "don't have an idea and then dump it on sombody else to tidy up".
I've not seen heaps of folks rushing to empty their wallets to support us in our work on CRK BRF and BXG.
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