258 Squadron

[errolmartyn]

laichzeit,

". . . Hurricanes over Singapore by Brian Sortahaug which are all about this unit's action and decimation out in the far east"

I think you meant to say Brian Cull and Paul Sortehaug.

Cheers,

Errol

[Dave Homewood]

Another great photo there. It's interesting to see a New Zealand pilot with a shamrock on his life preserver.

[laichzeit]

Thanks Errol, obviously in such a hurry I combined the two haha

The pilot is my great uncle who was born in Dublin but emigrated to New Zealand at a young age.
Pretty neat little good luck charm anyhow

[davidd]

Dave H,
The "poster" on the wall looks like a page out of the London Illustrated News, the man responsible being (from memory) somebody by the name of G H Davis, a well known commercial artist, and seemingly very keen on aeroplanes and the like, also very keen on "exploded" views of same. Google G H Davis London Illustrated News.

Incidentally am glad that "Iaichzeit" has brought up the subject of Terence Kelly's book as well as Paul Sortahaug's book. From the former we can say that the second photograph on this thread includes the person of Harry Dobbyn (seated in centre of photo, with Mae West on) and behind him is Tudor Jones, the squadron's engineer officer (they didn't call them engineering officers in those days). Stated to be "an early photograph of 258 Squadron." And the central character in the first photograph is almost certainly Wilf Clouston - very much like the few photographs I have seen of the man, dark features, moustache, average height, quite imposing and certain of himself! There is also a certain amount of information on the early days of 258 Squadron in the UK, in Volume 1 of the Official History of NZers serving with the RAF in the Second World War, pages 231/232, 234/235, well worth a read. And Terence Kelly confirms that by the time this squadron embarked for the Middle East, then the Far East in October 1941, the only New Zealanders (of the sixteen originals in early months of 1941) were F/Ls D J T Sharp and V B de la Perrelle (latter only to PoW in Japan), F/O H A Dobbyn and P/O B A McAlister (both killed on ops), and P/O C C White (sometimes seen listed as Campbell-White). Bulk of squadron comprised some 8 British, 4 Americans (USA serving in RCAF), 3 Canadians, one Australian and one Rhodesian.

Now for the letter that W G Clouston wrote (dated 8th February 1941), to Wing Commander Sidney Wallingford, the New Zealand Liaison Officer at Air Ministry, Adastral House, Kingsway, London, and signed himself as W G Clouston, Squadron Leader, Officer Commanding, No. 258 Squadron, Royal Air Force, Jurby, IOM (Isle of Mann).

"Dear Wing Commander,
As I previously mentioned to you by telephone, I am now in command of No. 258 Fighter Squadron which, by the use of a large amount of graft on my part, now has a strength of fifteen New Zealand pilots including myself. This figure is thus two-thirds of the establishment of a fighter squadron and, as the balance includes two Poles and two Czechs, it will be seen that it would not be a difficult matter for us to become a complete New Zealand squadron. I understand from the papers that the people of New Zealand have presented some vast sum to the British Fighter Fund; could not a portion of this money be diverted to the conversion of this Squadron to a New Zealand Unit?
I have amongst my pilots twelve who were trained in New Zealand and I may say that, for keenness and all round general ability, they will be difficult to beat. They have adapted themselves remarkably quickly to changed conditions and even more quickly to modern type of aircraft which they are now flying. They are, in my opinion, a credit to the training they receive at home, even if it is in obsolete aircraft.
With regard to this RNZAF personnel, I will appreciate information regarding their recommendation for promotion, commissions from the ranks and any other matters relevant to their welfare. Are they to be treated in exactly the same manner as RAF personnel?
Would you be so good, sir, as to let me have your views on this subject and, also, the details requested in my last paragraph.

Yours sincerely,
W G Clouston,
Squadron leader,
Officer Commanding,
No. 258 Squadron.

Also with this letter is another, shorter, letter dated 24th February 1941, and written by an officer of the rank of Flying Officer, and signing himself off as Adjutant, for Officer Commanding, No. 258 Squadron. Unfortunately his name is indecipherable. This letter states: "Attached hereto is a copy of a letter addressed by S/Ldr W G Clouston, DFC, commanding 258 Squadron, to Wing Commander S Wallingford, who, it is understood, has either returned, or is returning to New Zealand and has requested that this copy letter be sent to you for your consideration. It should be noted that, since this letter was written the number of New Zealand pilots has been increased to sixteen." It would seem that Wallingford had not time to decide on what to do about this request before his departure for New Zealand, so the letter may have been returned to the Isle of Mann with an explanation. The original letter has the NZLO "received date" as 11th February, and the second one is dated on receipt by NZLO on 27th February.

So quite an interesting letter, particularly with respect to Clouston's attempt to not only get his squadron designated as a New Zealand unit under the new agreement being negotiated by NZ and British govts, but also have his squadron re-equipped with new Spitfires! I don't think the planning section of Air Ministry would have been too pleased about the re-equipment idea - that was THEIR job, and re-equipment plans were worked out many months in advance, and were constantly revised as fresh information on aircraft deliveries and crew training details were received. To have a mere squadron leader trying to fiddle such deliveries in favour of his own squadron was definitely not cricket so far as they were concerned. Strangely it would seem that Clouston received no immediate reply to his queries, and this subject seems to have died out until early in May 1941, when see further down in this work.

The "Dominionisation" of 258 Squadron was not as simple and straightforward as Clouston imagined either, as the six squadron numbers allocated to New Zealand (485 - 490) were expected to be assigned to brand new squadrons, not by conversion of existing ones. Unfortunately Clouston in fact jumped the gun somewhat, as the NZLO did not receive the first proof of the Memorandum of Agreement on the subject of Article XV squadrons from Air Ministry until 14th February 1941, and the Liaison Officer by now was Squadron Leader F R (Freddie) Newell, who had replaced Wallingford in the interim, and on 27th February he received a print of the latest version of this agreement for comment before the final draft was published. Copies would also have been sent to New Zealand, and Newell sent a copy of the latest version to Bill Jordan on the 28th of the month. The subject of the "gift" Spitfires for New Zealand came up in March 1941, and it was pointed out at this time that New Zealand donors had up till this date contributed some 116,000 pounds Sterling towards the fund, and that for a "tariff" of 5,000 pounds one fighter (Spitfire, Hurricane, Defiant) would receive a name nominated by the contributor, or alternatively "a squadron" of fighters could be "purchased" for 100,000 pounds and would henceforth be "permanently associated" with the donor by renaming the squadron to reflect their wishes (in this case the New Zealand public at large), although the names ultimately chosen reflected the provincial method by which the funds were collected under in the first place. New Zealand imagined that 23 Spitfires had been "purchased", and the normal establishment of a fighter squadron was 16+2 aircraft. Discussions on the type of arrangement to be employed for these 23 aircraft eventually resulted in the "Squadron" method, and this ultimately became 485 Squadron, although not all the 23 aircraft names provided were ultimately used. At least this seemed to be what had transpired by 1/4/41. Later that month (on 20th April) S/L Newell received ten copies of the published version of the new arrangements for identification of RNZAF personnel in the RAF (including the identification of the Article XV squadrons) from the Air Ministry, known as the Memorandum of Agreement and comprising just 11 paragraphs, and signed by Mr Jordan in London on 17th April. This document also included (paragraph 2) the approximate dates of the formation of the six planned Article XV squadrons between March 1941 and "April or May 1942" (one by March, second by June, third by September, 4th by December, 5th by March, 6th by April/May 1942), although it was stressed that these dates could not be guaranteed, and indeed the actual progress was very much slower than hoped for.

In April 1941, a query reached the NZLO in London from the NZ Government Offices at 415 The Strand (the NZ High Commissioner), and relating to the supply of Spitfires to the "New Zealand Fighter Squadron", soon to be formed. Disturbing rumours had reached their ears that these aircraft were probably not actually new aircraft, and Newell went to some pains to explain that only two types of aircraft were recognised by the engineering establishment of the RAF, serviceable and non-serviceable, concluding with the statement that: "It can be safely said therefore, that aircraft with which the squadron will be equipped will be efficient in every way, although not necessarily straight from an aircraft factory." Shades of the NZ Canberra purchase 15 years later!

On 5th May Newell was advised by the High Commissioner for NZ at The Strand, that the previous day (actually on 30th April) the High Commissioner sent to Lord Beaverbrook the sum of 4,660 pounds, 16 shillings and sixpence Sterling, "for the purchase of a fighter aeroplane to be named 'Western Samoa', thus bringing the New Zealand gift of machines to a total of twenty-six."

To get back to the story of 258 Squadron, on the 11th May 1941 now Wing Commander F R Newell learned from the NZ High Commissioner's office that "the HC would like you to keep in mind that at No. 258 Squadron we have a Squadron Leader W G Clouston in command and a fair number of New Zealand airmen, mostly officers, under him. It might be an advantage to consider making this a New Zealand Squadron if it fits in with Air Ministry requirements and the scheme you have planned in your own mind. The HC merely puts forward this point as a suggestion that it might be possible to incorporate in the scheme."

Newell replied (dated 14th May) to the above query promptly, "I have discussed the proposition with certain Air Ministry officials, and while they did not intimate that it was out of the question, they felt that there were certain difficulties in such a course. Without enumerating these difficulties which are largely matters of RAF organisation, I would point out that the six RNZAF Squadrons to be formed have already been allotted a block of numbers, and the conversion of No. 258 Squadron would necessitate renumbering it. This rather cuts across Service tradition especially in the case of a squadron with battle honours of the Great War and the present one.
"I also understand that the proposition was put to Air Ministry by the Group in which No. 258 Squadron is situated when it was known that a RNZAF Fighter Squadron was to be formed. Air Ministry, however, took no action on the suggestion, no doubt for the reasons referred to above.
"If, however, at a later date the difficulties referred to can be overcome it might be possible to convert an already existing RAF Squadron with a preponderance of New Zealanders into an RNZAF Squadron after the quota of six under the agreement has been formed."

On 21st May 1941, Newell received a short note from the NZ High Commissioners Office at The Strand that "The High Commissioner has made the following observation:
If 258 Squadron cannot be denominated a New Zealand Squadron, it is likely that the NZ personnel can in block be transferred to a New Zealand Squadron and so advantage taken of their team training and desire to be a New Zealand Squadron."

Exactly a week later, Newell also learned of the planned formation of the second and third Article XV squadrons, Nos. 488 (Fighter) and 487 (Bomber), equipped respectively with Buffalo and Baltimore aircraft, and both to be operated within the Far East Command (Singapore/Malaya, still at peace). Two days later came the information that formation of 487 Squadron "is in abeyance for the moment owing to a setback in the date of delivery of Baltimores." This is the last document in the New Zealand Liaison Officer files of interest to this discussion, and 258 Squadron is not mentioned again in the volume I have access to.

David D

[Dave Homewood]

Very interesting stuff there David. It seems a bit odd a lot of this planning correspondence seems to have happened after No. 485 (NZ) Squadron actually formed, on the 1st of March 1941. It's like not much time was put into fore-planning before the formed the unit.

Of course Wilf Clouston came home to NZ to form No. 488 (NZ) Squadron, who he took to Singapore and Malaya, and he ended up captured and spent the rest of the war as a POW.

Interesting to hear about the No. 487 (NZ) Squadron plan with Baltimores, I'd never heard that before I don't think. That could make an interesting 'what if' modelling project.

[davidd]

Dave,
Wilf Clouston was sent out from the UK to take command of 488 Squadron in Singapore in about August/September 1941, then, as you point out, captivity. He was never with the squadron in New Zealand. Hutcheson and McKenzie were sent out to Singapore as the flight commanders for 488, as battle-experienced CO and flight commanders were specifically requested - no OTU-training was available in Singapore and all the pilots from NZ were "freshly minted" and totally inexperienced in the harsh art of aerial warfare. S/L C R (Roy) Bush was originally slated to be the first CO of 488 Sqdn, and was to report for transport to the Far East as from 10th August 1941, but for reasons unknown this never happened, so Clouston was sent out in his stead.

There is a certain amount of correspondence on the gift aircraft allocated to 485, and the thing that caused the greatest problems seemed to centre on the task of getting the "gift" aircraft photographed - this seemed to cause considerable grief to various PR (Public Relations that is) officers and officials, as there seemed to be a strong demand for these photographs in New Zealand, and nobody seemed to know where these aircraft were, or who was responsible for the photographs. As is well known, many of these aircraft were older Mk. Is, mainly used only for training. Much of the correspondence on file dates from this training period, which coincided with the introduction of the Article XV squadrons and the problems of definitions, and the misunderstandings about the gift Spitfires. Wilf Clouston seems to have caused a certain amount of confusion among Air Ministry officials, Ministry of Aircraft Production and the like. I imagine similar things happened in other armed forces along similar lines, although the RAF was VERY cosmopolitan with varying-sized bits of so many Allied air forces incorporated, so possibly had greater chances of such confusions!

Glad you liked the mention of the Baltimores - that only lasted for two days, but it seems that it was still planned to form Baltimore squadrons in the Far East to replace the Blenheims already there (as it was planned to replace the Vildebeests with Australian-built Beauforts), but neither of these plans ever worked out before Japan turned up for a big and noisy party in early December.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks, quite right about Clouston, I mis-remembered that.

[peterboer]

Those members and readers who want some more info on the Singapore/South Sumatra 258 Squadron and its aircraft may want to check out my recent paper "Hawker Hurricane emergency shipments for Singapore, Burma, Ceylon and the Netherlands East Indies, December 1941-April 1942" published on www.academia.edu (just fill in Peter Boer in the search window and you will get there).
Regards to you all,
Peter Boer

[peterboer]

To prevent having to sign up the following may be useful
independent.academia.edu/PeterBoer
Best regards,
Peter Boer

[clint]

Browsing through a second hand book shop the other day I purchased a paperback called 'Hurricane and Spitfire Pilots at War' by Terence Kelly. There is a chapter on 258 Squadron with two photographs, one shows what is described as Canadian and American pilots and the second are the NZ pilots, in both photos they are all wearing the silver fern badges.

[hbpencil]

laichzeit, in case you see this bump to your thread, I've sent you a pm.

HB

[mickmm]

Apr 10, 2017 13:15:01 GMT 12 laichzeit said:

Thanks Errol, obviously in such a hurry I combined the two haha

The pilot is my great uncle who was born in Dublin but emigrated to New Zealand at a young age.
Pretty neat little good luck charm anyhow

[mickmm]

Hi
I work at Seckford Hall and belong to the Martlesham Heath Aviation Society, so my interest is on George Montgomerie Marshall. MHAS have researchers that have looked at 258 records. I can say that by looking at cambridgeairforce web site about Hal Thomas and your information has formed more information on George and your Uncle than we knew. I did look at uk The National Archives AIR 27 1530 1 (written) or 2 (printed) Squadron Log Book of 258. My note book gives that AIR 27 1530 1 for 4th Jan 1940 at 17:30 at RAF base. P/O Marshall P/O Dobbyn Sgt White Sgt Thomas 12th Jan 41 258 to Isle of Mann 23 Jan IOM AIR 27 1530 3 transfer from Ackrington to Turby 17 hurricanes
AIR 27 1530 7 31 April 41 12 new hurricane mark 2 from 615 then fly them back to Kenley 258 at Kenley.
AIR 27 1530 11 give Marshall Yellow 1 and Dobbyn Yellow 2 with half damaged kills
AIR 27 1530 13 the 10 July 41 258 move Kenley to Martlesham Heath
20 07 41 Marshall engage ju88 no result
31 07 41 Marshall yellow 1 Dobbyn yellow2 take off 13:55 southwold convoy Marshall r/t total ailiron failure crash at Seckford Hall at 14:00 yellow 2 return to martlesham heath
For 16 June 41combat reports by Marshall and Dobbyn AIR 50 101 6 and 3 respectively. As said my interest was on Marshall. George's brother was buried at Suda Bay Create 24 May 1941 (mhas researches and cwgc)
Note that the written records of 258 has extra snippets of info. Sorry if i've keyed any mistakes. Thank you forposting your info i certainly would be interested if phots have actual dates? Thanks again mick

[alsgal]

Kia ora, Laichzeit

I guess we are related. Henry Augustine Dobbyn was my uncle, as I am the daughter of his youngest sister, Alice. BTW: She is still alive and living in her own place in Nelson, NZ. 
I got here after going to Online Cenotaph and laying a virtual poppy and leaving a message for Uncle Harry. ( My mum remembers him well but always refers to him as Harry, not Henry.)  Wasn't he handsome?  I have been looking for a picture online so I can add it to a display we are making about Anzac Day at the school where I teach. So, it was very nice to find this. 

A few years ago my husband and I were on a day trip in Singapore and we happened just by chance to go to the Kranji War Cemetary and it suddenly occurred to me that Uncle Harry's name might be recorded there somewhere. So, I went looking and found him. I was totally unprepared for the sudden surge of emotion which filled me as I laid my hand upon the cool marble surface where his name is inscribed. My husband found me crying like a baby as I tried to babble out, "Uncle Harry, you are remembered."

[wusholo]

Apr 25, 2018 10:40:58 GMT 12 alsgal said:

Kia ora, Laichzeit

I guess we are related. Henry Augustine Dobbyn was my uncle, as I am the daughter of his youngest sister, Alice. BTW: She is still alive and living in her own place in Nelson, NZ. 
I got here after going to Online Cenotaph and laying a virtual poppy and leaving a message for Uncle Harry. ( My mum remembers him well but always refers to him as Harry, not Henry.)  Wasn't he handsome?  I have been looking for a picture online so I can add it to a display we are making about Anzac Day at the school where I teach. So, it was very nice to find this. 

A few years ago my husband and I were on a day trip in Singapore and we happened just by chance to go to the Kranji War Cemetary and it suddenly occurred to me that Uncle Harry's name might be recorded there somewhere. So, I went looking and found him. I was totally unprepared for the sudden surge of emotion which filled me as I laid my hand upon the cool marble surface where his name is inscribed. My husband found me crying like a baby as I tried to babble out, "Uncle Harry, you are remembered."

[wusholo]

I was very interested to read this account of Harry Dobbyn and to see the great photos-what a record. My father, Nelson Blake, trained with Harry in the No 4 War Course but failed to obtain his wings as he crashed and wrecked a plane whilst doing solo night flying. He was medically discharged from the air force in June 1940 and then joined the navy and saw service until 1945 with the Royal Navy. Unfortunately, I believe Harry just missed out on being classified as one of the "Few" as he evidently commenced flying operations in England after the cutoff date of 31 October 1940. I have a photo taken of my father with Harry at Woodbourne in June 1940.



I attach the No 4 War Course group photo taken after they received their wings. My father was allowed in the photo but he was the only one missing the wings.



I have also attached photos taken of the plane my father crashed.




He was lucky to survive. Due to a boxing injury, he saw double when he looked down so had to close one eye when landing and misjudged the solo night landing. He did not tell anyone about this problem until after the accident and he was then sent to be examined by an eye specialist, who said he was unfit to fly and so he was given a medical discharge. He was very disappointed as he wanted to follow his older brother, Minden, into the RAF. Minden was one of the "Few".

Geoff Blake

[wusholo]

I notice that Squadron Leader Wilf Clouston was one of the "Few"

[Dave Homewood]

Terrific photos there Geoff. That poor old Vincent. Glad your Dad survived the crash though.

Very interesting to hear the family connection to Minden Blake!

[wusholo]

Thanks Dave much appreciated

Geoff

[wusholo]

From the photos of the wrecked plane, it seems the landing may have been too hard and the undercarriage could have collapsed. He was lucky it did not flip over on to its back. What do you think?

Geoff