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Post by laichzeit on Apr 4, 2017 9:29:14 GMT 12
Hi guys Have been lurking for a while. Thought I'd pop up. I had a great uncle (Henry Augustine Dobbyn) that flew with 258 Squadron RAF from October 1940 until he was shot down and killed over Jakarta on 25th February 1942. I have pretty much been the family's unofficial historian for him. As I have all his wartime letters to his sister here in NZ, his friend and also his photo album. I have noticed there has been no images of the silver fern on the Hurricanes that the flew - being the first 'un-official' NZ Squadron, so I will change that. I think they do get overlooked in the history books a bit which is a shame. Keen to get as much info as anyone might have about the unit between the times above. I will also add photos over time which might be of interest I'll start with the Squadron itself in front of a Hurricane complete with the fern taken mid 1941   |
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Post by davidd on Apr 4, 2017 11:08:27 GMT 12
Great picture of the lads of 258! As you point out, this unit attempted to become the first New Zealand Fighter squadron, but this was a change of status definitely not permitted on various "technical" grounds. The Commanding Officer was a New Zealander who had been following the introduction of "Article Fifteen" squadrons and thought he could fly in under the radar, so to speak. I have a copy of the letter he wrote to the Air Ministry on the subject, and their reply somewhere - will type it up and post it sometime soon. However, his reason for "converting" his squadron was solid - he had been deliberately encouraging suitable NZ flying personnel be posted in to his unit to get a goodly concentration of them - and in this sense his squadron would have been far more qualified than some later Article XV units, and I am particularly thinking of 488 (Night Fighter) and even more so, 489 (Coastal Command). The reasons for this process not proceeding in the case of 258 are quite interesting in themselves, as there were some definite administrative difficulties.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 4, 2017 11:34:52 GMT 12
Superb photo, thanks laichzeit! A good proportion of the squadron's pilots however were drafted into No. 485 (NZ) Squadron when it formed so they actually did in a way form the basis of our first fighter squadron in the RAF. David, I'd love to hear more about the background to this. My understanding was No. 258 Squadron reformed on the 20th of November 1940, so I'm interested to know more about the reference to October 1940. One of No. 258's members who was an original with 485 was Hal Thomas, who has a page on my website here: www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/Hal%20Thomas.htm |
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Post by laichzeit on Apr 4, 2017 12:48:56 GMT 12
Cheers Davidd, I'm guessing that Squadron Leader might have been Wilfred Clouston?
Interested in seeing that anyway.
Sorry Dave he arrived late October so would have been with the squadron when it formed in November. I had come across your page before while doing some searching for Henry and I see they would have taken the same path from training.
Also, of note is the silver ferns on the breast pockets on the uniforms
And to make it just that much more Kiwi, my great uncle is front row far right..in the rugby socks..
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Post by laichzeit on Apr 4, 2017 13:01:32 GMT 12
Another one:  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 4, 2017 13:13:09 GMT 12
I'd noticed the rugby socks, haha, very Kiwi.
Interesting that they wore the silver fern pins, No. 75 (NZ) Squadron's Kiwi members were also allowed to wear them.
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Post by hardyakka on Apr 4, 2017 22:21:47 GMT 12
There are a couple of guys in the first photo who are not wearing pilot's wings. The one seated on the far right (wearing glasses so I assume he wasn't a flying officer) and the one with his hands on Uncle Henry's shoulders. Any clue as to their roles? There is one other, third from the left, middle row. He looks a bit older than the rest. Some non-flying senior officer perhaps?
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Post by hbpencil on Apr 4, 2017 22:55:47 GMT 12
Cool photos, I'll be following this thread with interest  Is it me or some of the fellows in the first pic wearing 2 ferns? The second being on their tunic's left lapel. Also, any idea what those badge/clasps are on the two sergeants far right, back row? HB |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 4, 2017 23:42:08 GMT 12
Evan, there are three airmen there without a flying badge, all wear the VR badge on their collar indicating RAF Volunteer Reserve, and it's probably one will be the Squadron Adjutant (although a lot of Adj's were also pilots), and one may be the senior Engineering Officer. One of them is an older guy, and has a row of medals so possibly ex-WWI.
I think a lot of those pilots also wear the Polish insignia on their collar rather than the fern pin om their breast pocket.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 4, 2017 23:45:33 GMT 12
I'm not certain but I think it is this insignia on some of the pilots' left lapels, the Polish eagle  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 4, 2017 23:48:00 GMT 12
From my page on Hal Thomas;
"Details of the squadron are contained in a letter written by Sergeant-Pilot H.L. Thomas of Auckland. He said that a squadron comprising 17 New Zealanders, two Poles and two Czechs, as well as a number of Englishmen"
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 4, 2017 23:49:44 GMT 12
Also, any idea what those badge/clasps are on the two sergeants far right, back row? HB Looks like this Czech Air Force insignia  |
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Post by JollyGreenSlugg on Apr 5, 2017 0:08:43 GMT 12
Fascinating, this Aussie is following the thread with interest.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 5, 2017 0:11:23 GMT 12
The poster of the Heinkel 111 in their crew room is interesting. I wonder if that was an Air Ministry publication, or from elsewhere.
The big leather couches look so comfy.
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Post by hbpencil on Apr 5, 2017 10:00:31 GMT 12
Cheers for that Dave, I think you're probably right about the Polish and Czech insignias.
HB
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Post by camtech on Apr 5, 2017 12:40:45 GMT 12
Evan, there are three airmen there without a flying badge, all wear the VR badge on their collar indicating RAF Volunteer Reserve, and it's probably one will be the Squadron Adjutant (although a lot of Adj's were also pilots), and one may be the senior Engineering Officer. One of them is an older guy, and has a row of medals so possibly ex-WWI. I think a lot of those pilots also wear the Polish insignia on their collar rather than the fern pin om their breast pocket. I was thinking those without flying badges could be doctor, padre, engineer, adjutant, Intelligence Officer or similar |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 5, 2017 13:27:29 GMT 12
Padres were not attached to squadrons, only stations. Same with Medical Officers usually. And both had their own collar insignia I believe. But I reckon it's odds on they are the Adjutant, Intelligence Officer and/or Senior Engineering Officer.
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Post by camtech on Apr 7, 2017 11:04:30 GMT 12
May be so Dave, but Engineering/Intelligence officers and adjutants did not wear arm of service badges on their lapel. Possibly the doc and padre were roped in to make up numbers, or possibly a photo taken pre-deployment.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2017 11:13:40 GMT 12
RAF Volunteer Reserve members did, the VR badge
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Post by laichzeit on Apr 10, 2017 9:03:27 GMT 12
All interesting stuff guys. You may have heard of the books Hurrican over the Jungle by Terence Kelly and Hurricanes over Singapore by Brian Sortahaug which are all about this unit's action and decimation out in the far east I have a few letters which I am in the process of typing up which details my Great Uncles exploits over London at night and others Pic time:  |
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