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Post by aeromuzz on Apr 5, 2018 13:32:57 GMT 12
I understand the Boeing C-135 and KC-135 airframes were originally designated by Boeing as model 717, as opposed to the 707 which had a wider fuselage cross-section. However, they have been through a serious refit at some point during their lives, including the fitting of newer engines — they were originally fitted with the miltary version (J-57) of the non-bypass JT3C “civil turbojets” which also powered the first 707s, but with water injection for takeoff (the early civil 707s also had the option of water-injection for takeoff). The history behind the discrepency in fuselage cross-sections is an interesting one. The Boeing Dash 80 concept airframe, which was effectively the prototype of the 707 (and the K/C-135), had a much narrower fuselage, and that was intended to be the production width. However, Juan Trippe of Pan American Airways, the launch customer, played Douglas off against Boeing to get a wider fuselage which could seat six-abreast instead of the original five-abreast. Boeing thought they were getting the sole contract for supply of four-engined jet airliners to Pan American and they had refused to re-design the airframe to accommodate the greater width; however Juan Trippe had been secretly negotiating with Donald Douglas, who agreed to produce a fuselage wide enough for six-abreast seating, so when Trippe publicly announced he had signed a contract with Boeing for 20 model 707 jetliners and with Douglas for 25 model DC-8 jetliners, Boeing suddenly realised they were going to lose-out big-time to Douglas in subsequent orders unless they gave Trippe what he wanted. However, as they were already tooling up to produce C-135 and KC-135 airframes for the USAF, they kept the narrower fuselage for the military transports and tankers, but developed a newer, wider (and longer) fuselage for the civil 707 versions. Two very interesting books were published more than 3½-decades ago; both were biographies about Juan Trippe and Pan American. The first, published in 1980 is “ An American Saga — Juan Trippe and His Pan Am Empire” by Robert Daley; the second, published in 1982 is “ The Chosen Instrument — Juan Trippe and Pan Am — The Rise and Fall of an American Entrepreneur” by Marylin Bender and Selig Altschul. I've got copies of both books and they are very large tombs running to over 600 pages each, with each book devoting several chapters to the start of the jet age and the intense negotiations which went on before the first 707s and DC-8s were produced and delivered to Pan Am. If you want to know more, I'll start a fresh thread in the appropriate messageboard. EDIT: For more info about the KC-135 Stratotanker, CLICK HERE. Just to add, the military versions of the 707 are designated C-137 and this also includes the E3 Sentry. |
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Post by colford on Apr 5, 2018 15:43:10 GMT 12
I will echo the comments made by others before me regarding another successful Warbirds Over Wanaka. It was interesting for me to compare to the last time I attended back in 2004 when it included a flock of Polkarpovs, the last appearance by the Brietling Fighters including Ray Hannah, plus the Spitfire XVI before it headed over to Temora. The larger presence of modern military types this year, contrasting to the WW1 types back in 2004 was evident. I did like seeing the Buchon and a number of the other warbirds and historic types participating. I still have a heap of photos to sort through, but that will have to wait until I get back home next week. Still touring around the Otago area. Was able to tick a few boxes this trip, including a flight in the Catalina and a flight in Yak-3 Full Noise on the Friday. If anyone has any photos of Full Noise heading out or coming back for its flight around 4.30-5.00 on on the Friday, be interested to see them. Guy with the big smile on his dial in the back seat was me.
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Post by hardyakka on Apr 5, 2018 19:48:06 GMT 12
Very cool video. I heard that the second F-16 pilot got into a wee bit of trouble for some low flying he did while he was here! Apparently a complaint was made to the CAA by some tourist operators around Mt Cook and on the West Coast after they were beaten up by him... My initial thought was "They complained to the CIVIL Aviation Authority about a MILITARY aircraft... Good luck with that." But then I had a thought, the USAF were not here for a military visit, they were doing a civilian airshow. Perhaps they do have an obligation to follow civilian rules....? I assume some agreement was reached at a political level to have a foreign airforce visit, but I don't know what that entailed in this case. Interesting! Anyone know how the USAF visit was actually arranged? It had to be through the RNZAF, surely? My bet is the CAA person who took the complaint just said "Thank you for your report. We will make sure the appropriate action is taken." ...then went back to watching Cad West videos of proper jets doing the Mach Loop ( and being annoyed because they weren't present when the F-16 did the beat-up! )  Actually my first reaction was more a Monty Python-esque "You Jammy Bastards!". I'd be quite keen to get up close with an F-16 having a lark... |
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Post by hardyakka on Apr 5, 2018 20:02:26 GMT 12
I thought both jet types were very cool. I'd not be unhappy if we got some BAe Hawks in NZ. I remember from Arthur Gatland's talk at the last forum meet in Tauranga that he reckoned the Hawk was the best bang for the bucks in a multi-role strike aircraft for NZ's requirements. He thought it was a great dogfighter due to its sustained-G performance. Avionics and weapons systems are probably more important than outright airframe performance these days. I don't know what all the other ex-knucks think but I liked what I saw at the Wanaka display ( it does need the afterburner equipped version of the Adour engine to make it a proper noisy airshow machine though...) |
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Post by saratoga on Apr 5, 2018 20:05:53 GMT 12
I understand the Boeing C-135 and KC-135 airframes were originally designated by Boeing as model 717, as opposed to the 707 which had a wider fuselage cross-section. However, they have been through a serious refit at some point during their lives, including the fitting of newer engines — they were originally fitted with the miltary version (J-57) of the non-bypass JT3C “civil turbojets” which also powered the first 707s, but with water injection for takeoff (the early civil 707s also had the option of water-injection for takeoff). The history behind the discrepency in fuselage cross-sections is an interesting one. The Boeing Dash 80 concept airframe, which was effectively the prototype of the 707 (and the K/C-135), had a much narrower fuselage, and that was intended to be the production width. However, Juan Trippe of Pan American Airways, the launch customer, played Douglas off against Boeing to get a wider fuselage which could seat six-abreast instead of the original five-abreast. Boeing thought they were getting the sole contract for supply of four-engined jet airliners to Pan American and they had refused to re-design the airframe to accommodate the greater width; however Juan Trippe had been secretly negotiating with Donald Douglas, who agreed to produce a fuselage wide enough for six-abreast seating, so when Trippe publicly announced he had signed a contract with Boeing for 20 model 707 jetliners and with Douglas for 25 model DC-8 jetliners, Boeing suddenly realised they were going to lose-out big-time to Douglas in subsequent orders unless they gave Trippe what he wanted. However, as they were already tooling up to produce C-135 and KC-135 airframes for the USAF, they kept the narrower fuselage for the military transports and tankers, but developed a newer, wider (and longer) fuselage for the civil 707 versions. Two very interesting books were published more than 3½-decades ago; both were biographies about Juan Trippe and Pan American. The first, published in 1980 is “ An American Saga — Juan Trippe and His Pan Am Empire” by Robert Daley; the second, published in 1982 is “ The Chosen Instrument — Juan Trippe and Pan Am — The Rise and Fall of an American Entrepreneur” by Marylin Bender and Selig Altschul. I've got copies of both books and they are very large tombs running to over 600 pages each, with each book devoting several chapters to the start of the jet age and the intense negotiations which went on before the first 707s and DC-8s were produced and delivered to Pan Am. If you want to know more, I'll start a fresh thread in the appropriate messageboard. EDIT: For more info about the KC-135 Stratotanker, CLICK HERE. Just to add, the military versions of the 707 are designated C-137 and this also includes the E3 Sentry. Slightly on off topic, the Boeing 717 is a current day DC-9,as i found out flying in one from Darwin to Alice last year. |
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Post by camtech on Apr 5, 2018 21:37:50 GMT 12
Quite a bit off topic - Boeing 717 is a DC9?
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Post by Mustang51 on Apr 5, 2018 22:12:52 GMT 12
Ohhhh........don't go there........
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Post by camtech on Apr 6, 2018 8:02:18 GMT 12
Ok - got it.
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 6, 2018 13:08:02 GMT 12
I've just answered the show's survey (which primarily is working out spending in the region).
I rated most aspects of the show as 'Good', except the commentary ('Neutral'). I did provide constructive criticism on the commentary.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 6, 2018 13:53:08 GMT 12
Do you have a link Errol?
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 6, 2018 14:42:38 GMT 12
Do you have a link Errol? It was a link from a email, I assume linked to my ticket purchase? May be dependent on options selected / if you have an account with ticket agency? The process remembered my email, asked before forwarding my address for a draw for DVD. BTW, the Temora premium tickets include a digital version of the DVD, nice touch. |
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Apr 6, 2018 15:16:47 GMT 12
I sent my critique of the airshow directly to Mandy Deans by email, as well as a further donation to the Warbirds Over Wanaka flying scholarship fund which provides advanced flying training to young pilots with a view to getting them up to standard to fly and display warbirds at future airshows. I make a donation to the fund every year with my Warbirds Over Wanaka Club subscrtiption, but after hearing Mandy describe at the club function last Saturday how blown away the recipients of that scholarship are, I decided to pay some more money into the fund.
Unfortunately, a lot of the display pilots are getting on in years and Keith Skilling told us he is on the verge of retiring as a display pilot, with John Lamont having already virtually retired, so if these young pilots aren't encouraged to get into flying warbirds, we may one day reach a situation where there is a severe shortage of pilots able to display high-performance warbirds for our pleasure.
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Post by l29 on Apr 6, 2018 16:13:09 GMT 12
I dont think young people need the encouragement, its already there and many allready have the skills, ive found its the aircraft owners and breaking into the "club" thats the issue.
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Post by Mustang51 on Apr 6, 2018 17:29:35 GMT 12
Sometimes it takes a very brave person to hand over their multi million dollar warbird to someone young. It obviously was not a problem in WW.II but now..... Andy Bishop at Temora is the world's most recent P.40 pilot so good news there.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 6, 2018 17:52:44 GMT 12
Great news about Andy getting his P-40 rating.
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Post by FlyingKiwi on Apr 7, 2018 14:05:55 GMT 12
A big part of the issue is also the ongoing cost of keeping current; that ends up being a much more significant financial outlay than just doing a type rating - no one wants their Spitfire being flown by someone who did a ten hour type rating and has flown it once in the last two years.  And that's not even considering display flying currency. |
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andynz
Pilot Officer
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Post by andynz on Apr 7, 2018 14:35:27 GMT 12
Hi all, I think the issue will take care of itself. Those motivated enough to participate will, and those who aren't, won't. Graham Orphan does a fantastic job of discussing vintage aircraft syndication during the commentary at CF - he points out the variety in syndicate options from Christchurch to Auckland. So there is no lack of options depending on your budget throughout NZ to get involved. Here is a link to the classics fly-past last weekend. I finally managed to organize myself with cameras and get multiple camera angles. Talk about fiddly to put it together! I thoroughly enjoyed myself last weekend, I thought Sunday in particular ran extremely well and was well presented. Roll on Classic Fighters 2019. Regards, Andy |
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 7, 2018 15:02:23 GMT 12
..Was able to tick a few boxes this trip, including a flight in the Catalina and a flight in Yak-3 Full Noise on the Friday. If anyone has any photos of Full Noise heading out or coming back for its flight around 4.30-5.00 on on the Friday, be interested to see them. Guy with the big smile on his dial in the back seat was me. Sorry, can't help with the Yak, as I headed into town for the lakeside show. When was your Catalina flight? |
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Post by colford on Apr 7, 2018 16:26:55 GMT 12
[/quote]Sorry, can't help with the Yak, as I headed into town for the lakeside show. When was your Catalina flight?[/quote]
Hi Errol, we were lucky enough to get on the first flight on Friday, that was around noon. Conditions on the lake were perfect and the pilot gave us a super smooth water touch and go. Regards.
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Post by planecrazy on Apr 8, 2018 6:27:08 GMT 12
Hi all, Here is a link to the classics fly-past last weekend. I finally managed to organize myself with cameras and get multiple camera angles. Talk about fiddly to put it together! Regards, Andy Great video thanks for sharing, nice to see the area from the air as well, on that subject coming in to the end of the runway you see a circle with angled lines? Sorry if this is silly, is this for display pilots to line up there runs or something un related? Thank you...... |
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And that's not even considering display flying currency.
