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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 8, 2017 14:41:25 GMT 12
Have you tried writing to the New Zealand Minister of Defence and requesting any details of the exercise and the crash through the Official Information Act?
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Post by frankly on Aug 8, 2017 18:59:43 GMT 12
You need to be a permanent resident (or maybe citizen, I forget the details) to use the OIA. He'd need to rely on a NZ pers assisting.
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Post by angelsonefive on Aug 8, 2017 19:40:05 GMT 12
Hi Nightstalker, I went to the Aviation Safety Network website and found TWO UH-60s written off in March, 1984. 79-23336 w/o on the 2nd, and 80-23471 w/o on the 21st. The source in both cases is the ASN Archive. I suggest you contact the ASN and see if they have any further info. Here is a contact for them : aviation-safety.net/about/contact.phpThe above dates may not neccessarily be those of the accidents, but rather the ' writing off the books ', back in the USA. |
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Post by McFly on Aug 8, 2017 20:32:22 GMT 12
Hi Nightstalker, I went to the Aviation Safety Network website and found TWO UH-60s written off in March, 1984. 79-23336 w/o on the 2nd, and 80-23471 w/o on the 21st. The source in both cases is the ASN Archive. This site states that "80-23471, A/158 AVN, UH-60A, 21 March 1984 - A/C crashed during a routine training mission at Ft Campbell at 1620 hours. A/C was being flown at 60 KIAS and 70' AGL with an empty pallet beneath the acft. The airflow lifted the 300 lb pallet, causing it to hit the T/B and slide up the side of the T/B into the M/R system, and acft rolled right in a nose-low attitude, crashed through trees and came to rest inverted and immediately caught fire".No mention of 79-23336..  |
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Post by McFly on Aug 9, 2017 19:18:25 GMT 12
Here's the sister UH-60 Blackhawk to Nightstalker's 79-23336 during their visit to New Zealand. I believe it's S/N 78-22995 which was eventually sold to Israel as MSN70058(641) or it could be 78-22998 (a bit unclear)? UH-60 79-23336 can be seen in the background having just arrived and in better condition then when it left...   |
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Post by McFly on Aug 9, 2017 19:42:41 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 9, 2017 20:21:45 GMT 12
I just had a thought, might the AHSNZ Journal from the tie not these visitors and mention the accident?
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Post by camtech on Aug 9, 2017 20:43:26 GMT 12
Good point Dave. Mine are stored at the moment, but I'm sure someone will be able to check the journal and Aerolog.
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 10, 2017 16:36:24 GMT 12
Here's the sister UH-60 Blackhawk to Nightstalker's 79-23336 during their visit to New Zealand. I believe it's S/N 78-22995 which was eventually sold to Israel as MSN70058(641) or it could be 78-22998 (a bit unclear)? UH-60 79-23336 can be seen in the background having just arrived and in better condition then when it left... Yep, this was my wingman, call sign, "HB 5". She was a veteran of the Grenada Invasion. Lost the GE700 engine facing the camera and took a lot of body and windshield damage from a Cuban ADA unit only 6 months before. I was part of the team that put her back together - I think she looks pretty good, considering. My aircraft (next to her) was "HB 3". |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 12, 2017 14:24:44 GMT 12
I would like to address a legitimate concern that some members of this forum have brought to my attention (in private) and may give people who might have been familiar with this incident apprehension in helping me piece it together. I acknowledge that the activities of TF160 and your SAS are classified. The reason for this is to keep our enemies guessing as to our organization, tactics and equipment. No one here, myself included, wishes to assist our mutual enemies by tossing about classified information. For my part, I have said nothing about your SAS' activities at that time. I have confined myself to just my aircraft and crew. It has been over 30 years since this incident. There is nothing I am asking about that isn't comparable to incidents I have read about in several books (I am pretty sure I own them all) about TF 160 - some by former pilots with the organization's approval. There is nothing in what I need to prove about the March 1984 incident that will aid our enemies anymore than what can be gleaned from those books.
That being said, I am utterly blown away by the response I have thus far received from the WONZ community. The amount of information I've gotten from the forum and in private messages is helping me to build a solid case for my appeal - when all I had before was vapor! It truly is amazing what you guys are coming up with. Have you ever thought of trying your hand at looking for Amelia Earhart? Just sayin' .......
- NSDQ
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Post by Barnsey on Aug 12, 2017 15:07:03 GMT 12
from m.aerialvisuals.ca/AirframeDossier.php?Serial=38284Airframe Family: Sikorsky S-70 / H-60 Latest Model: UH-60A Last Military Serial: 79-23336 US Army Latest Owner or Location: Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Newport News, Virginia Perhaps get in touch with them at the base and see if the airframe is there, and if there's a history with it? |
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Post by McFly on Aug 12, 2017 17:26:58 GMT 12
from m.aerialvisuals.ca/AirframeDossier.php?Serial=38284Airframe Family: Sikorsky S-70 / H-60 Latest Model: UH-60A Last Military Serial: 79-23336 US Army Latest Owner or Location: Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Newport News, Virginia Perhaps get in touch with them at the base and see if the airframe is there, and if there's a history with it? Well that would make sense as Joint Base Langley-Eustis is a 2010 amalgamation of Langley Air Force Base and the US Army's Fort Eustis. Fort Eustis is the place where they train service members in aviation maintenance and all of the US Army helicopter maintenance technicians. See here Fort Eustis has a large collection of UH-60 Blackhawks A, K and M models for the aviation technicians to train on. A comment in this 2014 blog states that the " The Blackhawks we train on are from the 80’s and beat and broken." so it's highly likely with the information that Barnsey has provided that 79-23336 is (still) there as a A model Blackhawk maintenance trainer for the US Army.? Additional info states that Fort Eustis also have in their Blackhawk training inventory some of the more famous helicopters including one from the raid in Somalia (Blackhawk Down). Nightstalker - Where are you located? Perhaps take a visit to Virginia to reacquaint yourself with the old bird that tried to kill ya..?  Here's a couple of photos showing the Blackhawk trainers at Fort Eustis although I can't make out 79-23336 in them.    |
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Post by McFly on Aug 12, 2017 20:04:31 GMT 12
Actually thinking a bit laterally now. If 79-23336 is there at Joint Base Langley-Eustis (Fort Eustas) as a maintenance trainer and as Barnsey suggests above. Perhaps they still have its original US Army Maintenance Logbooks (DA FORM 2408-12 [or 13]-1) filed away somewhere, and if so it should record the 'last' flight of the helicopter as well as the location (and "hard landing") including the date/time group etc...? It should also record the names of the pilots/crew so may give you another lead to find them and see if their pilot/flying logbooks record the event..?   |
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Post by McFly on Aug 12, 2017 20:07:13 GMT 12
Nightstalker is this accurate...?   |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 12, 2017 21:21:02 GMT 12
Nightstalker is this accurate...? It's uncanny! But you can tell the guy is a civilian and an amateur - just from the lack of distance! |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 13, 2017 18:34:34 GMT 12
Fort Eustis has a large collection of UH-60 Blackhawks A, K and M models for the aviation technicians to train on. A comment in this 2014 blog states that the " The Blackhawks we train on are from the 80’s and beat and broken." so it's highly likely with the information that Barnsey has provided that 79-23336 is (still) there as a A model Blackhawk maintenance trainer for the US Army.? Additional info states that Fort Eustis also have in their Blackhawk training inventory some of the more famous helicopters including one from the raid in Somalia (Blackhawk Down). Nightstalker - Where are you located? Perhaps take a visit to Virginia to reacquaint yourself with the old bird that tried to kill ya..? McFly, I actually trained at Ft. 'Useless' when they only had ONE Blackhawk we took turns working on. Prior to that I trained at the 'then' home of Army Aviation - Ft. Rucker ('Mother Rucker' as we lovingly referred to it!). Unfortunately, I now live as far away as you can get in the contiguous 48 states from Newport News, Virginia. California. I do still have some friends in D.C. and Virginia. Time to pull in the favors! I am not going to put much hope in the log books. I remember showing at least three aircraft the (hangar) door during my time with TF 160. They headed back to their original units without their log books. I distinctly remember someone from S2 coming in an personally collecting them. As I mentioned before - it really was a black hole for paperwork. That is why I am pegging my hopes on the New Zealand bureaucracy! |
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Post by McFly on Aug 14, 2017 18:17:30 GMT 12
Whoop...! Found a newspaper article and photo on the visit of the C-5 Galaxy to RNZAF Whenuapai which even mentions the exercise with the NZ Army and that six helicopters were here (The x2 UH-60 Blackhawks & x4 OH-6 "Little Birds') etc . However the date of the publication is 1 May 1984 (not necessarily when the picture was taken or when the aircraft was still here) and the image includes the wing and engines of a C-141 'Starlifter'. I believe that this is the pick-up aircraft at the end of the exercise (as a C-5 did also return to RNZAF Whenuapai), and the fact that it's not painted in the 'European One' camouflage scheme but just in the older basic white and grey with trim scheme. I can confirm that the Camouflaged C-5 (66-8306) is the one that brought the helicopters down as the photos I took are sequential on the negative strip, so this one in the article must be the recovery aircraft. I couldn't find a newspaper article (if there was one..?) that had the 'arrival' or any mention specifically of the Blackhawks. With respect to the dates. Nightstalker, you say you arrived late Feb 1984. Do you recall how long you were here for or how long the 'exercise' went on for? If we are to assume that 79-23336 is the Blackhawk that had the 'heavy landing' on or about the 2 March 1984, then you must have had only one Blackhawk plus the 'Little Birds' left to complete the rest of the exercise with, and that it continued on for another few weeks before the late April pick-up? I think things are starting to gel and we are getting closer to the holy grail (the exact S/N of the incident aircraft, the incident itself and proof it and you guys were actually here etc...). I'm chasing down (hopefully) some additional photos of the aircraft and helicopters at Whenuapai from another source, although I suspect you too are using your new contacts and leads to tease out some additional information from various sources.  The subject C-5 S/N 66-8306 in the 'European One' scheme that brought the helicopters to New Zealand.  |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 18, 2017 4:01:54 GMT 12
McFly - It is frustrating to try to piece the events of 33 years ago when you are required to give up documents. I know that there was another C5 that came after our initial visit that carried four (4) Black Hawks and ? other aircraft. We stayed an additional 10 days to 2 weeks after the incident. So ....... this article was published much later than when our C5 landed, or this is the follow on C5, or I got the dates wildly wrong, or 79-23336 reported date of March 2nd was wrong (having been filed several years after the fact) and it was May 2nd. So many facts whirling around. Which are correct and how do they fit together?
Aironce - Do you have a date for the night the C-5 landed?
Still, as frustrating as all this information is, it definitely beats the nothingburger I started with!
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ronbom
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 2
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Post by ronbom on Aug 18, 2017 12:22:07 GMT 12
Hi nightstalker84,
I have checked our societies quarterly journal for the period of January thru to June 1984, and have unearthed some detail that may be of use.
Source: Journal of the Aviation Historical Society of New Zealand, Vol.27 No.3 September 1984, Page 46. under International Movements Review, compiled by Ron Killick.
20th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy(Camouflaged) serial 66-8306 (0004) arrived at Christchurch from Whenuapai, departed to Richmond the following day 21st.
then
25th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy serial 68-223 (0026) arrived at Christchurch from Auckland, to Honolulu the same day.
Was shown on TV loading 3 Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters at Whenuapai.
As with 66-8306 visit on the 20th April 1984, they were in New Zealand as support for "Exercise Cayuse Run"
Reading the replies of others, I would suggest that this has pinpointed the time frame down to possibly arriving at Whenuapai on the night of the 19th April 1984 and departing Whenuapai initially
for Christchurch and then back to Honolulu on the 25th April 1984.
Will keep looking but I think that it may give you a lead that is helpful.
Ron Ark
AHSNZ Honorary Secretary
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 18, 2017 14:02:57 GMT 12
Thanks Ron.
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