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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 2, 2017 16:54:55 GMT 12
In 1984 I was an American Crewmember on a UH60A Black Hawk operating out of Whenuapai, that experienced a hard landing (crash). It was cleaned up quickly and I along with three others were treated and released. As I have aged (and gotten flabbier) my abdominal muscles no longer support my back in the way they did and have uncovered old wounds. I have sought redress from the U.S. Army and have received my latest rejection. The crux of their argument was that there are no records of U.S. Army Black Hawks operating in New Zealand in 1984. I was here! I was part of an integration exercise with the SAS here and in Queensland in response to disturbing things going on in Indonesia at the time. I use the subject heading "Black Hawk Down", because the Army unit that I belonged to was Task Force 160, later becoming 160 SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment), the Nightstalkers, the same unit that supported the U.S. Rangers and Delta Force in Mogadishu in the book, Black Hawk Down. McFly posted pictures of my aircraft, so I know there is evidence out there, I just need to be able to provide some kind of provenance. If that is still insufficient to win my case, so be it - but to suffer and have your country call you a liar is beyond the pale. Anybody willing to help an old rotor-head?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 2, 2017 18:05:00 GMT 12
Good luck nightstalker. It's pretty amazing that there is no record of this. How did the aircraft get to New Zealand? Were they in transport aircraft? Would the transport squadron would have cargo manifests?
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Post by McFly on Aug 2, 2017 20:19:33 GMT 12
Good luck nightstalker. It's pretty amazing that there is no record of this. How did the aircraft get to New Zealand? Were they in transport aircraft? Would the transport squadron would have cargo manifests? Hi Dave, I supplied some information on this in another thread along with some photos, however the evil Photobucket ruined my pictures and until I hook up with another (Flickr.?) we can't see them.  Here they are..  I seem to recall that there was also a bunch of MH-6 'Little Bird' helicopters that came out of the C-5 as well but were generally kept from view in the hangar. The C5 came back again later on to collect them. (Good times) NightStalker, apologies for not responding sooner, however I had hoped to get my photo hosting sorted sooner but sadly not. McFly, that last picture of the C5 is identical to the picture I remember from the newspaper account at the time. What is the provence for it? Is there a formal source for these pictures or are they from your personal collection? -Norm The photos are mine (I took them.. ) and I 'believe' I have more somewhere in my photo archives including the C5 doing a low 'beat-up' of Whenuapai on its departure..! I recall it took a while to come round and complete the high speed pass and looked like a slow moving block of flats whistling by...! You're welcome to use/copy etc the photos as you wish and I could email them directly to you if wanted - just private message me in this forum. Additionally, I may be able to rescan them to improve the quality for recognition purposes. I probably still have the 35mm negative strips that these came from which may contain more pictures of the helos so perhaps having those scanned in may be an option as well..? There was quite a bit of interest in the 'visitors' at the time, and I would expect that there were quite a few more photos taken apart from mine? Your unit would have been working with our SAS (Special Forces) which are based at Papakura Army Camp here in Auckland. It may be possible to contact them and see if they have photos/information etc on the visit - I'll try and find a contact where you could inquire to or try their website. There are a couple of people I know who were dedicated to capturing a photo of every visiting aircraft/helicopter that ever came to RNZAF Whenuapai (and RNZAF Hobsonville) so again I'm sure more exist.? Thinking more, I suspect that our 3 Sqn may have been involved with their UH-1H Iroquois helicopters as they always support the SAS in training/exercises etc, they too may have something in their archives or some of their association members may recall the time etc? There is also a Facebook page for Ex-RNZAF folk who may also recall the visit and may be able to shed additional light on the subject..? Also you could approach the NZ Defence Force requesting information and/or try the 'National Archives' and search for something there..? Hope this is of some assistance Norm..? |
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Post by fireonce on Aug 4, 2017 13:50:49 GMT 12
Hi nightstalker,I was Firemaster at Base Auckland when the two C5's landed and disgorged numerous helicopters,personnel etc in the dark of the evening i seem to recall that there was a couple of Black Hawks included.I think they were involved in a major exercise, as we had Jet fighters(make unknown,cant recall) doing CAP over Whenuapai. They were based at Ohakea.I am sorry, but dont recall an incident with a Black Hawk.I will contact several people I know who may recall this incident.
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Post by camtech on Aug 4, 2017 18:29:15 GMT 12
Do we have a more definitive time frame for this event?
Exercise Triad was late 1984.
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 5, 2017 21:24:24 GMT 12
Camtech, It was still Summer, so end of February, beginning of March.
Fireonce, any assistance would be appreciated. Yes, I remember that evening very well. It seems that a bus was sent out to pick us all up and move us to lodgings. The driver had, for some reason, waited for us with the engine off (using the battery power for God knows what). By the time two dozen of us were loaded up to go, the battery did not have a charge and the bus would not crank up. About 15 of the enlisted and NCOs (myself included), got out and push started the bus. I have done some extraordinary things during my time in Special Ops, but I have never heard of a passenger bus being push started (maybe it happens in the Third World all the time) and like that nauseating song at the Disney Small World ride - this memory just sticks in my head!
McFly, Did you provide that C5 picture to the newspaper? I swear I saw that exact picture in a newspaper a couple of days after we landed. I seem to recall an article as well that mentioned Black Hawks. A copy of that article and picture from a newspaper archive would definitely cinch it on the provenance front.
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Post by scrooge on Aug 5, 2017 22:26:00 GMT 12
Trying to be helpful re dates- you have taken the southern hemisphere seasons into account regarding 'summer 1984' as that could cover 1983/84 or 1984/85?
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 6, 2017 7:11:34 GMT 12
Scrooge, it would have been February/March of 1984.
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 6, 2017 7:36:36 GMT 12
Good luck nightstalker. It's pretty amazing that there is no record of this. How did the aircraft get to New Zealand? Were they in transport aircraft? Would the transport squadron would have cargo manifests? Dave, when I left Germany (1st Armored Division) I was the equivalent of a Corporal (E4). When I left Task Force 160, I was a Staff Sergeant (E6). My personnel file had simply been thrown into the G2's safe at Ft. Campbell during that time. When I left, my paperwork said I was still an E4 and none of the awards and such had been included. I was Airborne and Air Assault qualified and had gone through the NCO academy - none of it were in my records. As if it had never happened. Fortunately, I held on to my certificates and after 12 (!!!) years was able to have my records corrected. My point is that as a relatively new unit, that wouldn't officially exist for another 7 years, they didn't maintain or create records (even internally) on their personnel or activities. Much like my certificates, I have to reconstruct the incident at Whenuapai from outside sources. I can only speak to the C5 I was riding in. She and her crew were assigned to us through SOCOM (Special Operations Command). TF 160 was responsible for handling (or mishandling) her records/flight plans/manifests. If this had happened in the U.S. the FAA would have generated an Incident Report - even though this was military. Would New Zealand have something like that? Thanks. |
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Post by scrooge on Aug 6, 2017 10:08:52 GMT 12
Maybe not if it was not reported to them, which might have been the case with some foreign military operations in NZ. It would depend on who saw the event and who was involved.
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Post by camtech on Aug 6, 2017 11:21:09 GMT 12
Not sure if this is of any help, but took a punt on approx. date
ASN Wikibase Occurrence # 77623
Last updated: 5 August 2017
This information is added by users of ASN. Neither ASN nor the Flight Safety Foundation are responsible for the completeness or correctness of this information. If you feel this information is incomplete or incorrect, you can submit corrected information.
Date: 02-MAR-1984
Time:
Type: Silhouette image of generic H60 model; specific model in this crash may look slightly different
Sikorsky UH-60A Black Hawk
Owner/operator: US Army
Registration: 79-23336
C/n / msn:
Fatalities: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: -
Phase:
Nature: Military
Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Narrative:
Sources:
Scramble
Revision history:
Date/time Contributor Updates
30-Nov--0001 00:00 ASN Archive
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 6, 2017 11:23:33 GMT 12
Scrooge, if your military had reported it to a civilian authority, who would that authority be? There were no deaths - but there was definitely fuel, oil and transmission fluid spilled on the ground.
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Post by camtech on Aug 6, 2017 11:26:56 GMT 12
Scrooge, if your military had reported it to a civilian authority, who would that authority be? There were no deaths - but there was definitely fuel, oil and transmission fluid spilled on the ground. Depends where - the local authority (Council) and/or the Regional Council may have been involved in clean up. |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 6, 2017 11:35:12 GMT 12
Camtech, the ASN does not show location. How do you find who added this to the database? This is VERY encouraging! Thanks!
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Post by delticman on Aug 6, 2017 12:02:39 GMT 12
Camtech, the ASN does not show location. How do you find who added this to the database? This is VERY encouraging! Thanks! That serial number is on Joe Burgners list. www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1979.htmlNo location or any other information. |
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Post by camtech on Aug 6, 2017 12:14:19 GMT 12
Sorry, but that was all the information on the site. I thought it was close enough in time to be of interest. I have another couple of thoughts that I will follow through later today.
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Post by camtech on Aug 6, 2017 12:16:57 GMT 12
From USAF Serials:
23336 (MSN 70153, C Co, 2-147th Avn) w/o Mar 2, 1984. To GUH-60A instructional airframe from 1992.
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 6, 2017 13:58:08 GMT 12
Camtech, That doesn't knock it out of contention - TF 160 was allowed to grab aircraft and personnel from all over the Army. Since it's TO&E was classified, our aircraft were never formally transferred from their original units - so on paper it would look like an aircraft was awaiting parts or something (a hangar queen), when it was actually flying around on the other side of the world. As an example, I belonged to Charlie Company, 158th Aviation Battalion. But my Company Commander at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky didn't report to anyone that actually commanded the 158th Aviation Battalion (I think they were in Germany at the time). The 158th Aviation Battalion would have had us on their TO&E. They would have received funding to feed, shelter and arm us which they could keep and spread around their real units - a good deal for them! Our actual budget came out of SOCOM. And yes, prior to 1988 our deaths were reported out of that unit (I understand they have gone back and changed that once they stopped being a 'Task Force', but I don't imagine anyone cared about correcting our aircraft info).
Still, this is yeoman work. You guys are great!
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 8, 2017 14:01:13 GMT 12
From USAF Serials: 23336 (MSN 70153, C Co, 2-147th Avn) w/o Mar 2, 1984. To GUH-60A instructional airframe from 1992. Turns out C Co, 2-147th Avn is a National Guard unit in Minnesota (state reserves). Prior to that it was an Army Reserve (USAR) unit going back to the 70s. There is no way that a reserve unit had Black Hawks in 1984, when only 10% of regular U.S. Army aviation units had them. I'm thinking we found my bird! The only way to be certain would be if I had kept some of the documentation on her. Unfortunately, when I left the unit I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement and surrender any documents I had relating to TF 160. It was implied that if needed the unit would produce them. The lying bastards! |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 8, 2017 14:27:40 GMT 12
I stand corrected. According to Jane's Aviation the utility helicopter mix in the regular U.S. Army was 24% Black Hawks to 75% Hueys in 1984. I assume the 1% difference is a rounding issue or ??. With the exception of a reserve unit in Virginia (near D.C.) Jane's Aviation shows no other reserve unit in 1984 had Black Hawks.
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I seem to recall that there was also a bunch of MH-6 'Little Bird' helicopters that came out of the C-5 as well but were generally kept from view in the hangar. The C5 came back again later on to collect them. (Good times)
