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Post by McFly on Aug 18, 2017 21:19:53 GMT 12
Hi nightstalker84, I have checked our societies quarterly journal for the period of January thru to June 1984, and have unearthed some detail that may be of use. Source: Journal of the Aviation Historical Society of New Zealand, Vol.27 No.3 September 1984, Page 46. under International Movements Review, compiled by Ron Killick. 20th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy (Camouflaged) serial 66-8306 (0004) arrived at Christchurch from Whenuapai, departed to Richmond the following day 21st. then 25th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy serial 68-223 (0026) arrived at Christchurch from Auckland, to Honolulu the same day. Was shown on TV loading 3 Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters at Whenuapai. As with 66-8306 visit on the 20th April 1984, they were in New Zealand as support for "Exercise Cayuse Run". Reading the replies of others, I would suggest that this has pinpointed the time frame down to possibly arriving at Whenuapai on the night of the 19th April 1984 and departing Whenuapai initially for Christchurch and then back to Honolulu on the 25th April 1984. Will keep looking but I think that it may give you a lead that is helpful? Ron Ark AHSNZ Honorary Secretary Wow Ron that’s a great bit of (solid) information that nicely captures some of the aircraft involved and movements etc. Nice too that we get confirmation of the exercise name (“ Exercise Cayuse Run”) as well which is also the name given to the OH-6 ‘Little Birds’ that accompanied the Blackhawks down to New Zealand. So some of the dates are interesting and may either clear things up or muddy the waters a bit more..? Looking at the time-line now: • 20th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy (Camouflaged) serial 66-8306 (0004) arrived at Christchurch from Whenuapai. So agree that it may have arrived at Whenuapai either the night before (19th) or even a few days before (15th?). • 25th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy serial 68-223 (0026) arrived at Christchurch from Auckland (presume Whenuapai). Was shown on TV loading 3 Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters at Whenuapai. This too fits with some of the information already known. And referencing the newspaper article dated 1 May - If the C-5 was at Whenuapai on or about the 25th and was photographed etc then forwarded to the newspaper for inclusion (which was only published once a week) so 1 May fits. However some of the murkiness still exists.  - Did a number of C-5s arrive and depart with various TF 160 helicopters (Blackhawks / OH-6 etc) over a number of weeks that the exercise was potentially held..?
- For Nightstalker to recall the newspaper article which also referenced the Blackhawks be his C-5 although the dates don’t line-up.?
- Is the information supplied and I followed up with respect to the Blackhawk S/N possibly not be our incident helicopter with a written off date of 2 March 1984..? Or is that poor record keeping, or even the date it was ‘declared’ written off and not the incident date or something else altogether..?
Nighstalker rightly states below that there is still some gaps to fill and dates to lock down, however we’re on the right path ad with Ron’s information closer to (hopefully) nailing this. McFly - It is frustrating to try to piece the events of 33 years ago when you are required to give up documents. I know that there was another C5 that came after our initial visit that carried four (4) Black Hawks and ? other aircraft. We stayed an additional 10 days to 2 weeks after the incident. So ....... this article was published much later than when our C5 landed, or this is the follow on C5, or I got the dates wildly wrong, or 79-23336 reported date of March 2nd was wrong (having been filed several years after the fact) and it was May 2nd. So many facts whirling around. Which are correct and how do they fit together? Onward….   |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 18, 2017 21:29:37 GMT 12
Are there files kept specifically on exercises? Do the files contain all the dates, participants, venues, aircraft numbers, etc., involved? Are is such a file able to be accessed through the Official Information Act?
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Post by McFly on Aug 18, 2017 22:18:55 GMT 12
Nightstalker - Here's an interesting website that asks and answers the question/request to find out about: 'How to find records of specific US Army helicopter accident?' May be useful to your research...? historyhub.history.gov/thread/1605And this address may be of assistance toward a FOIA request. 'Army Aviation Accident Reports, U.S. Army Combat Readiness/Safety Center, ATTN: CSSC-SS (FOIA), 4905 5th Avenue, Fort Rucker, AL 36362-5363.' |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Aug 19, 2017 15:50:38 GMT 12
Nightstalker - Here's an interesting website that asks and answers the question/request to find out about: 'How to find records of specific US Army helicopter accident?' May be useful to your research...? historyhub.history.gov/thread/1605And this address may be of assistance toward a FOIA request. 'Army Aviation Accident Reports, U.S. Army Combat Readiness/Safety Center, ATTN: CSSC-SS (FOIA), 4905 5th Avenue, Fort Rucker, AL 36362-5363.'Yep, Mother Rucker was the first place I tried. Not only do they get accident reports, but ALL helicopter movements out of CONUS (even to Canada or Mexico) get filed there. Unfortunately, these are the bastards that swear up and down that those Black Hawks you took pictures of were not in NZ in 1984. Yes! Cayuse Run! That jogged my memory - I remember the name. It also got me to thinking about time-frames. I was stuck on end of February and beginning of March, because of things we did in Hawaii. But unlike the C5 that landed after us (while we were still in NZ) we didn't come straight here from Hawaii. The first C5 came in from Townsville, Austrailia, where we were mucking around with their Special Forces (Indonesia, remember?). It seemed like a long time in place - of course, that could be because it's Austrailia! In either case, the incident in NZ occurred before the 2nd C5 arrived. We ended up taking one of their Black Hawks (they had four) to complete our training schedule with the SAS. That Black Hawk came home with us when we left. The remaining three are probably the ones loaded in Christchurch that Ron was talking about. Makes sense. Our group (with the exception of 2 OH-6s) never went down to Christchurch with the other C5. I did submit the SN 79-23336 aircraft to Mother Rucker to see if I could get more insight as to when the accident report was filed (one on-line source said 2001) and any details as to why a reserve unit would have a Black Hawk in 1984. We will see what comes back - I'll share when I know. Once again - stellar work, guys! |
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Post by McFly on Aug 29, 2017 20:28:30 GMT 12
25th April 1984 - C5A Galaxy serial 68-223 (0026) arrived at Christchurch from Auckland, to Honolulu the same day. Was shown on TV loading 3 Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters at Whenuapai. So photo confirmation now of C-5 Galaxy 68-223 at RNZAF Whenuapai dated 24th April 1984 below. No helicopters yet...   (Air Force Museum Official)  (Air Force Museum Official)  (Air Force Museum Official) |
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Post by suthg on Aug 30, 2017 14:31:22 GMT 12
I could see if my friend Mark Bragg who has Len Tawhiri's photo negatives can come forward and share them to see if there is anything of interest in there that relates to this subject and time and date? He was promising to drop a coupl;eof shoe boxes off at some stage. I would pay for the scanning and digitisation... Oh bother, he only worked up as far as late 50's but there are a lot of post war training group photos and bi-planes of various shapes and makes in there so he said, but nothing of the 60's going forward. Sorry...
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Post by nightstalker84 on Sept 21, 2017 3:58:59 GMT 12
Nightstalker - Here's an interesting website that asks and answers the question/request to find out about: 'How to find records of specific US Army helicopter accident?' May be useful to your research...? historyhub.history.gov/thread/1605And this address may be of assistance toward a FOIA request. 'Army Aviation Accident Reports, U.S. Army Combat Readiness/Safety Center, ATTN: CSSC-SS (FOIA), 4905 5th Avenue, Fort Rucker, AL 36362-5363.'Yep, Mother Rucker was the first place I tried. Not only do they get accident reports, but ALL helicopter movements out of CONUS (even to Canada or Mexico) get filed there. Unfortunately, these are the bastards that swear up and down that those Black Hawks you took pictures of were not in NZ in 1984. Yes! Cayuse Run! That jogged my memory - I remember the name. It also got me to thinking about time-frames. I was stuck on end of February and beginning of March, because of things we did in Hawaii. But unlike the C5 that landed after us (while we were still in NZ) we didn't come straight here from Hawaii. The first C5 came in from Townsville, Austrailia, where we were mucking around with their Special Forces (Indonesia, remember?). It seemed like a long time in place - of course, that could be because it's Austrailia! In either case, the incident in NZ occurred before the 2nd C5 arrived. We ended up taking one of their Black Hawks (they had four) to complete our training schedule with the SAS. That Black Hawk came home with us when we left. The remaining three are probably the ones loaded in Christchurch that Ron was talking about. Makes sense. Our group (with the exception of 2 OH-6s) never went down to Christchurch with the other C5. I did submit the SN 79-23336 aircraft to Mother Rucker to see if I could get more insight as to when the accident report was filed (one on-line source said 2001) and any details as to why a reserve unit would have a Black Hawk in 1984. We will see what comes back - I'll share when I know. Once again - stellar work, guys! Well Ft. Rucker responded. "The aircraft you requested information on is a training aid at our AIT station for helicopter repair at Eustis Aviation Center. There is currently no information available on the conditions and circumstances related to the disabling of this aircraft, if such event occurred. As stated before, no UH60 aicraft left the CONUS inventory for ANZUS activities in any non-U.S. ANZUS countries from the 1983 to 1986 search. That would include this aircraft. Please contact us if you have any further inquiries. It is a pleasure to serve you." AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH! My head is going to explode! What a load of ......... As I mentioned before, I am pinning all my hopes on the WONZ community. I am currently preparing my appeal. Everything I need is in your country. Someone came and hauled the aircraft back to Whenuapai. Several people medically treated us after the incident. Someone cleaned up the fluids spilled at the site (right?). Everybody not-TF160 keeps records. Just one. All I need is one. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 21, 2017 9:42:46 GMT 12
Seems pretty odd they reckon the helicopters never came here when there are photos of them on this very thread taken at Whenuapai!
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Post by isc on Sept 21, 2017 23:09:12 GMT 12
Back then we were an ANZUS country, but we must have been wiped off the ANZUS map when we departed. isc
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Post by nightstalker84 on Oct 1, 2017 9:07:53 GMT 12
Back then we were an ANZUS country, but we must have been wiped off the ANZUS map when we departed. isc And this, isc, is why the world so desperately loves bureaucrats! |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Oct 1, 2017 9:10:44 GMT 12
Seems pretty odd they reckon the helicopters never came here when there are photos of them on this very thread taken at Whenuapai! Dave, the parcel of gold has arrived. I say again, the parcel of gold has arrived. I have said it before and I will say it again - the WONZ community is amazing! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 1, 2017 9:18:06 GMT 12
Great, I hope that info from the archives that I forwarded on from Mark makes a real difference. Best of luck!
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Post by McFly on Oct 1, 2017 16:34:06 GMT 12
Seems pretty odd they reckon the helicopters never came here when there are photos of them on this very thread taken at Whenuapai! Dave, the parcel of gold has arrived. I say again, the parcel of gold has arrived. I have said it before and I will say it again - the WONZ community is amazing! Great, I hope that info from the archives that I forwarded on from Mark makes a real difference. Best of luck! 'BINGO'...! Good to see additional confirmation of the C-5 Galaxy visits to Whenuapai plus the added bonus of the consignment of '3 EA - UH-60 HELOS'...! (Hard to deny it now...)  |
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Post by nightstalker84 on Oct 1, 2017 19:51:15 GMT 12
McFly, and unlike the follow-on C5 from Hawaii, this one clearly left (the city of) Townesville - exactly as I said it did. Yeah!
One interesting thing is that only two of the black hawks were off-loaded at Whenuapai. The last one stayed on the C5 for some 'secret squirrel' assignment at Christchurch. I was roommates with the crewchief on that aircraft for a year after and he never would tell me what they did. I didn't realize how not knowing bothered me until I remembered that. Dang it! Now I'm going to sit here and wonder ..... wait, what were we talking about, again? (The advantage of getting older is that you are likely to forget the things that used to bug ..... wait, what were talking about, again? ;-)
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Post by nightstalker84 on Feb 25, 2018 8:13:12 GMT 12
At long last a response from the Veterans Administration (VA): "A review of the evidence you provided has determined that there are sufficient grounds to grant you an appeal."
For those keeping score, you have to apply for an appeal. Once the appeal is granted, there is a discovery process (but you have to know where to look) and any classified information will be reviewed by someone with a security clearance and then redacted. I am sure it will be a sore point when they review the C5's classified manifest and see 79-23336 (from McFly's picture) listed - 3 months after it supposedly crashed in Minnesota! Oh, what a tangled web ....
Once again, I want to express my gratitude to the WONZ community. If I ever make it back to NZ I owe several people a nice steak dinner and drinks!
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Post by camtech on Feb 25, 2018 15:43:25 GMT 12
Great to see some progress in your quest. May the gods keep smiling, or at least a lop sided grin!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 25, 2018 23:44:58 GMT 12
Excellent. Best of luck with the appeal.
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Post by frankly on Feb 26, 2018 7:01:07 GMT 12
I've been talking to a mate who was SF in the 1980s.
He recalls a C-5 delivering two or three Blackhawks and a pair of 500s. There were several short exercises and remembers hearing there was a hard landing. He was on a course with the parachuter training support unit at the time and did some free fall jumps from one of the Blackhawks. He's got some photos of the choppers somewhere he's trying to find. The PTSU may also still have records of the jumps and aircraft tail numbers.
I'll keep digging.
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Post by nightstalker84 on Feb 26, 2018 19:09:10 GMT 12
Frankly, this is yours and your mates opportunity to make the dinner list. You can even order the lobster!
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Post by McFly on Feb 26, 2018 19:32:28 GMT 12
I've been talking to a mate who was SF in the 1980s. He recalls a C-5 delivering two or three Blackhawks and a pair of 500s. There were several short exercises and remembers hearing there was a hard landing. He was on a course with the parachuter training support unit at the time and did some free fall jumps from one of the Blackhawks. He's got some photos of the choppers somewhere he's trying to find. The PTSU may also still have records of the jumps and aircraft tail numbers. I'll keep digging. A good lead knowing that some para jumps were done from the Blackhawks and the Parachute Jump Instructors (PJIs) at the time should/would have recorded the tail numbers for their logbooks etc. I can pop down to the Parachute Training Support Unit (PTSU) tomorrow and hopefully take a look through their archives and see what eventuates. Additionally, there are a few of the 'older' PJIs still around that could be canvassed for their logbooks :-). PTSU had a 50th reunion back in March 2015 so there should be plenty of good contacts from that available who would have been around during the time of the 'Blackhawks'...! |
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