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Post by jp on Jan 13, 2018 6:34:50 GMT 12
It seems you've also inadvertently deleted posts re: the P-40 and the Oxford , Dave.....
On another note, how about restoring the Avenger back to TT config? Plenty of boring 3-tone ones around the country now, and converting it to its war-time scheme seems a bit half-hearted anyway - as an aircraft that has one of the longest continual ownership records by the Air Force (if you include the museum), why not put it back in the colours it served the longest in?
As an aside - the "bumble bee" scheme usually attracts much more attention from non-enthusiasts (wives, children) than the current one.....
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jan 13, 2018 9:03:55 GMT 12
Agree with the re-conversion of NZ2504 back to its target towing days. One of the prime reasons we restored it to that role was that most of the equipment fitted was available, and of the
16 years of service with the RNZAF, 15 of those were as a target tug. In that configuration it also contributed to the topdressing trials, a major development of agricultural aviation in NZ.
As a final comment, NZ2504 did not serve overseas, spending all of its career in NZ, so the portrayal of it as a "SWPA" operational avenger is not correct.
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Post by saratoga on Jan 13, 2018 9:18:06 GMT 12
Guess for restoration 'Best practice' is 'as i say,not as i do'..or whatever suits the argument!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 13, 2018 9:34:43 GMT 12
On another note, how about restoring the Avenger back to TT config? Plenty of boring 3-tone ones around the country now, I would not call three 'plenty'. And it is looking increasingly likely that the Ken Jacobs Avenger currently being restored at Classic Flyers will end up in its target tug colours. For that matter, the original target tug Avengers flew in exactly the scheme that the Wigram one wears now. So it represents operational and second line aircraft. How do you figure that?? In the scheme it wears it represents all 44 Avengers that served in the RNZAF, in New Zealand and in combat in the Pacific. A target tug scheme only represents a small handful, on two or three stations, and a job that most of the pilots absolutely hated. It's not representative of the type's service in my opinion. Which scheme though? There were several different variations. Do you mean it's gate guard scheme? If you discount the gate guard scheme it was probably longest in the colours it wears now. Wow, now there is a statement  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 13, 2018 9:37:01 GMT 12
As a final comment, NZ2504 did not serve overseas, spending all of its career in NZ, so the portrayal of it as a "SWPA" operational avenger is not correct. It is not in the colours of a SWPA operational Avenger now. It represents itself, when it was an operational Avenger based at RNZAF Station Gisborne, actually performing defence duties. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 13, 2018 9:38:35 GMT 12
If they had kept their second Avenger and put that into tug colours that would be fine. But since they only have one now, I say leave it exactly how it is, as it is the far more representative and important colour scheme worn by the type, and it's accurate.
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Post by jp on Jan 13, 2018 9:53:48 GMT 12
I suggested the conversion was half-hearted because aside from re-installing a turret and changing the colour scheme, what was done to the internal fit-out, what about the stinger gun position?
Also, when I raised a question early last year with museum staff re: the formation lights on the underside of the fuselage which are on drawings, but don't seem to show up on photos on the restored aircraft, one of the museum went to check and found they were still masked over from its repaint nearly 20 years ago - so maybe 3/4 hearted might be fairer....
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 13, 2018 12:04:25 GMT 12
Nearly 20 years ago? I'm pretty sure that Avenger has not had a full repaint in well over 30 years, before the museum opened publicly in 1987, when Air New Zealand's staff that painted it?
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 13, 2018 12:12:30 GMT 12
This'll be when Simon can get through the mountains of paperwork on his desk...
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Post by davidd on Jan 13, 2018 12:53:56 GMT 12
So far as I know, the history of this Catalina is fairly well known in a general sense (including its adventures when it was hi-jacked during early service with Cathay Pacific), but due to the length of time it spent in PNG as a firefighting practice hulk, and the fact that it had been grounded for years, I doubt that any official paperwork on its earlier history was in existence by this time. It was of course originally a USAAF OA-10A from memory (amphibian) but was later modified (in Australian service) to a pure flying boat, although some of the structural members from its amphibian days could still be seen if you looked carefully at the lines of rivets around about the location of the mainwheels (visible in published photos of it in PNG after fire damage). I have never seen any details of its military service with the USAAF, although I believe it was a fairly late production model. Incidentally these remnant structural members were completely deleted during the re-skinning process at Base Auckland. In case of doubt, the Museum is lucky enough to have Smokey Dawson on its staff these days. Simon keeps a watching brief on this website so he may be able to put me right if I have erred in any way in this brief summary.
David D
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Post by baz62 on Jan 13, 2018 14:03:06 GMT 12
Nearly 20 years ago? I'm pretty sure that Avenger has not had a full repaint in well over 30 years, before the museum opened publicly in 1987, when Air New Zealand's staff that painted it? Correct, painted 1986. |
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Post by baz62 on Jan 13, 2018 14:09:09 GMT 12
And it is looking increasingly likely that the Ken Jacobs Avenger currently being restored at Classic Flyers will end up in its target tug colours. Target tug colours gets my vote too like it or not. And if they are putting NZ2539 back into target tug markings perhaps they better stop putting the turret back in? |
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Post by jp on Jan 13, 2018 14:17:52 GMT 12
20 yrs or 30 - doesn't matter - my point is unlike its first resto which returned the aircraft to what appears to be an immaculate TT paint-scheme, in its wartime guise, it wasn't even unmasked completely for thirty years...
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Post by saratoga on Jan 13, 2018 15:13:38 GMT 12
...paint it black and call it Zorro!...masked for 30yrs...
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Post by agalbraith on Jan 15, 2018 10:49:19 GMT 12
And it is looking increasingly likely that the Ken Jacobs Avenger currently being restored at Classic Flyers will end up in its target tug colours. Target tug colours gets my vote too like it or not. And if they are putting NZ2539 back into target tug markings perhaps they better stop putting the turret back in? Hmmm, good point there Baz. Personally I would love to see her back in the TT scheme considering that apart from the turret, the rest is still TT configured from what I can see. Maybe as a compromise she could have the turret removed and be given a bright yellow rear fuse, patched up blue paintjob (like they are doing to Memphis Belle presently) and Popeye on the nose?? Now that would be cool....thus honouring a famous Kiwi pilot and allowing another story to be told? |
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Post by baz62 on Jan 15, 2018 13:42:08 GMT 12
Target tug colours gets my vote too like it or not. And if they are putting NZ2539 back into target tug markings perhaps they better stop putting the turret back in? Hmmm, good point there Baz. Personally I would love to see her back in the TT scheme considering that apart from the turret, the rest is still TT configured from what I can see. Maybe as a compromise she could have the turret removed and be given a bright yellow rear fuse, patched up blue paintjob (like they are doing to Memphis Belle presently) and Popeye on the nose?? Now that would be cool....thus honouring a famous Kiwi pilot and allowing another story to be told? Yes would be quite eyecatching and the only aircraft I believe to have carried artwork of all the museum aircraft. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2018 15:57:47 GMT 12
You advocates of the scheme are hereby officially known collectively as "The Tuggers"  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2018 15:59:34 GMT 12
thus honouring a famous Kiwi pilot and allowing another story to be told? Who are you referring to? |
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Post by rone on Jan 15, 2018 18:43:24 GMT 12
That's not too hard to work out, is it.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 15, 2018 20:19:30 GMT 12
Well I am confused. The only person that comes to mind is Fred 'Popeye' Lucas, but he never flew Avengers, so I cannot work it out.
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