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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 16, 2018 14:08:40 GMT 12
The colour scheme it was in previously as NZ2521 represented a combat veteran aircraft of No. 31 Squadron that was lost in action over Rabaul with all three of its crew killed. I thought that was a perfect tribute to the main contribution that the Avengers made to the RNZAF and to the crews that flew them, as did the Avenger crew members I have spoken with.
When it was recently decided it would return to its own serial number of NZ2504, this too is fine as it is the genuine aircraft, and it contributed to the war effort as a crew trainer and an operational patrol aircraft over our own waters while based at RNZAF Station Gisborne.
But painting it in a topdressing trials scheme would represent a few short months in the life of the aircraft, and tell nothing of the aircraft's main story as a bomber.
I think this is a case of modellers going for the shiny bright paint scheme, over the actual important history of the airframe because it doesn't stand out so nicely to the modeller's eye. I'd be very, very disappointed if this Avenger were to be downgraded to a second line scheme such as a target tug or topdresser. The silver and yellow scheme is dead ugly for a start.
A national Air Force museum's airframes should represent the largest contribution to the service of the types, so I think it needs to stay in its WWII operational scheme.
I however have no problem if the one in Tauranga gets the bumblebee scheme. It is not a national museum, nor is it the museum of our Air Force, and they already tell the story of topdressing as well as WWII, so it would fit much better.
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Post by jp on Jul 16, 2018 14:25:40 GMT 12
Not so keen on top dresser scheme - but it was painted most its service life as a target-tug - and there is more to a Air Force with 80 years of History than the 6 years of conflict that most people seem fixated on.
I don't know why you think modellers are the ones that like shiny colour schemes - WW2 is still the most popular era for modellers (by a long way), which is hardly shiny...
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Post by agalbraith on Jul 16, 2018 14:33:53 GMT 12
Although I respectfully disagree with you Dave, I do see your point.
To me,(my personal opinion)is the RNZAF is more than a front line force that saw some years wartime combat compared to the years she has been around. The notion that "Downgraded" second line 'peacetime duties' cant or shouldnt be recognized is unfair to all those servicemen and women who were cooks, mechanics,refuellers, barbers, aid relief through to combat crew.
It's nothing to do with people who think bright shiny schemes is more aesthetically pleasing to modellers at all. In fact, they (T tug schemes) werent the nicest schemes the RNZAF has adorned on their airframes....I agree. But nonetheless important.
Anyway this is probably a pointless discussion as nothing will change, at least she wears her own serial number now!
Still a good discussion
Cheers
Anthony
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 14:41:05 GMT 12
In all fairness to the Museum Zac, they have a nice video playing on a screen next to her showing her with '03' doing the trials Well there you go! Problem solved! I've not been there since 2007. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 16, 2018 15:54:25 GMT 12
Although I respectfully disagree with you Dave, I do see your point. To me,(my personal opinion)is the RNZAF is more than a front line force that saw some years wartime combat compared to the years she has been around. Of course the RNZAF is more than a front line force. And most of the RNZAF's service has been in peacetime. But its main role is the defence of New Zealand, all its other roles are secondary to that. WWII saw the peak for the RNZAF, we'll never see anything like it again. The comment above that some are fixated on WWII is irksome, historically it was singly the most important period of New Zealand's history, ever. It should not be forgotten,ever. Particularly in times like these where fascism is once again on the rise. As for postwar colour schemes, how about the Mustang, Vampires, Dakota, Beaver, Auster, Andover, Skyhawks, Iroquois, etc, etc. they all played a vital part in the history of the RNZAF but never went to war. All have schemes that represent their major service. There are far less WWII schemes on the collection's aircraft than there are postwar schemes. The Hudson, P-40, Avenger, Anson and Harvard are the only RNZAF types represented, plus the Spitfire representing our RAF efforts. That is all. Two of these six were trainers only, not front line aircraft, so represent the second line services. In fact the P-40 could also fit into that category as it wears a 1944 colour scheme. That is nonsense, I never said that. And I never said postwar, because the target tug scheme you put up is a wartime scheme, but it is second line, which is a term meaning "non-operational". Important yes. But remembering our front line combat heroes is more important in my opinion. Particularly when wartime schemes are clearly a minority among the collection. I have every respect for those who flew the target tugs, I have known several of them - there's at least one on this very forum - but most that I have spoken to regarded it as a pain in the arse chore and nowhere near as important as flying combat operations or other regular duties. If the airframe was made to tell the story of a target tug, it becomes all about that and the stories of No's 30 and 31 Squadrons' training at Gisborne and their operations in Bougainville will fade away into obscurity, guaranteed. And the kids of tomorrow will grow up thinking that Avengers just towed targets around the sky. If you really want a target tug, how about the C-47? Oh yes, it is already wearing the scheme that they wore as target tugs... |
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Post by agalbraith on Jul 16, 2018 16:43:58 GMT 12
I appreciate your thoughts Dave and see the angle you are coming from, thanks.
Actually whilst we are on the topic, is there any info out there on the winches they used? I have always been interested to see how they looked/worked. I understand Wigram has the original winch out of '04'(that used to be swapped around airframes also I believe)but it couldnt be located. Maybe after the shift around it may have surfaced?
Cheers
Anthony
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 16, 2018 16:47:17 GMT 12
I don't see a problem with the Avenger being painted as a target tug (which is what the Avengers did for the longest time they were in service with the RNZAF), because the airworthy Avenger based at Ohakea and GAPS' Avenger (currently at Tauranga) are both painted in the wartime operations livery (or at least close to it); and presumably the other Avenger which is being restored (which used to reside in the playground at Havelock North decades ago) will also appear in wartime colours.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 16, 2018 17:56:56 GMT 12
They are strongly leaning toward target tug colours on the one at Tauranga.
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Post by saratoga on Jul 16, 2018 18:28:51 GMT 12
They are strongly leaning toward target tug colours on the one at Tauranga. ...complete with turret to keep everyone happy... |
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Post by baz62 on Jul 16, 2018 18:50:23 GMT 12
Brilliant. Go target tugs! 😊
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 16, 2018 19:12:58 GMT 12
They are strongly leaning toward target tug colours on the one at Tauranga. Excellent. So....two Avengers in WWII colours and two Avengers in target tug colours. It's almost like American democracy in action, eh?   |
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Post by corsairarm on Jul 16, 2018 20:17:55 GMT 12
They are strongly leaning toward target tug colours on the one at Tauranga. Excellent. So....two Avengers in WWII colours and two Avengers in target tug colours. It's almost like American democracy in action, eh? I think the ratio is 3 to 1 |
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Post by jp on Jul 16, 2018 20:47:39 GMT 12
4:1 if you want to count the one at MoTaT....
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Post by corsairarm on Jul 17, 2018 3:57:11 GMT 12
4:1 if you want to count the one at MoTaT.... oops I was counting the MoTaT one.I was operating the wings last week end for the monthly live day. I forgot about the Ohakea one |
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jul 17, 2018 11:34:02 GMT 12
1. If Avenger NZ2504 was to be configured in the role that it served most if its life (15 out of its 16 years of operational service) then it would be as a target tug. It was in this role
that the top dressing trials were conducted which proved successful and resulted in the country leading the world in the application of fertilizer. (as stated there are videos of this in
the museum) If presented in the TT configuration, again, video and static display of operational TBF's can supplement the one tour each of 30 and 31 squadrons, which although significant
for those on the squadrons, were like 25 squadron reasonably short and not repeated.
2. As for the winch. the winch that had been fitted to NZ2504 was located at Ohakea when we were doing the rebuild, it had been used in Dakota NZ3546. It was recovered to Wigram
and I believe is still there. Another reason for selecting the TT scheme when we decided to rebuild the aircraft was that all of the equipment fitted to the avenger during its final
years (comms equip, winch, etc) was available.
3 To try and fully reconfigure the aircraft into its delivery scheme, will result in some bits not being found, as the other two restorations of NZ2505,NZ2527 have found.
I personally would vote for the TT configuration.
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Post by agalbraith on Jul 17, 2018 12:30:07 GMT 12
1. If Avenger NZ2504 was to be configured in the role that it served most if its life (15 out of its 16 years of operational service) then it would be as a target tug. It was in this role that the top dressing trials were conducted which proved successful and resulted in the country leading the world in the application of fertilizer. (as stated there are videos of this in the museum) If presented in the TT configuration, again, video and static display of operational TBF's can supplement the one tour each of 30 and 31 squadrons, which although significant for those on the squadrons, were like 25 squadron reasonably short and not repeated. 2. As for the winch. the winch that had been fitted to NZ2504 was located at Ohakea when we were doing the rebuild, it had been used in Dakota NZ3546. It was recovered to Wigram and I believe is still there. Another reason for selecting the TT scheme when we decided to rebuild the aircraft was that all of the equipment fitted to the avenger during its final years (comms equip, winch, etc) was available. 3 To try and fully reconfigure the aircraft into its delivery scheme, will result in some bits not being found, as the other two restorations of NZ2505,NZ2527 have found. I personally would vote for the TT configuration. Yes good reasoning. I believe there were quite a few mods to the airframe from memory. The whole tunnel gun area was removed and redesigned with an upward hinging window for the drogue to exit, anti-fouling cables off the horizontal stabs, interior gutted and completely reconfigured, hook and much armour plate removed shortly after conversion, flare tubes removed and patched. Its more a T Tug with a turret fitted, than an operational Pacific Theatre TBF. And I believe it itself is very unique. Hence I thought the Pacific blue scheme with yellow tail was a nice compromise and great Nose Art to boot. Would love to see that winch, actually Wigram must have the mod sheets for the conversion....David? Cheers Anthony |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 17, 2018 12:47:30 GMT 12
" If Avenger NZ2504 was to be configured in the role that it served most if its life" That would be over thirty years in its current scheme then...  |
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Post by agalbraith on Jul 17, 2018 12:49:48 GMT 12
LOL....true Dave!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 17, 2018 12:53:46 GMT 12
Anthony, perhaps a 1/32 model in target tug colours set up next to the aircraft out of reach of the public and suspended as if flying and towing a target, with a Corsair or P-40 or Mossie behind it firing at the target, would make a much better display as it would show exactly what the deal with target towing was about. And no real aircraft would be harmed in the process.
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Post by agalbraith on Jul 17, 2018 13:16:44 GMT 12
Hahaha.....sounds like you are setting me a challenge! I do have a 32nd kit I have started redoing all the skin work on to do as a TT. Hey at least Wigram has the space to hang it all from LOL
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