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Post by gibbo on Oct 22, 2018 9:50:18 GMT 12
It looks like Buzz Lightyears design. And no you cant trust the Navy ( or Army for that matter ) to select the right kit. How come it takes years to introduce a new toy into service ( NH90 ) yet Air NZ has their new 787s earning $$$ within a week . Even the Army's lastest bang bang doesnt go bang , rather embarrassing if you pulled the trigger. I said years ago ( nobody listened ) that our Navy should be buying US Coast Guard vessels , even second hand . Long range , good crew facilities , ocean going ( think Alaskan and Aleutian waters ) have a pop gun and are IRB capable . Nobody will listen as Defence think that they always need big ticket items . Yet a Hiluk with a bunch of 50 cals in the tray seem to hit the spot in many places and the hard tipped $5000 rounds that are fired against them just go right through.So then you need a laser guided $2 million missile to do the job ,and I think thats how the Defence industry works . So never ask them how to crack an egg. Wow....! Rest assured this will be no Charles Upham! This vessel will be doing merely an extension of what she was built for and she was built to do this stuff in the North Sea & environs so she'll handle the rough stuff! Mark my words, she'll prove to be a quite capable asset. Will take a while to get into service as (1) she is in commercial use till the end of the year (2) She has up to 3 months of phase 1 mods (3) 5-6 weeks to transit to NZ (4) A couple of months phase 2 mods (5) RNZN need to get crew trained, SOPs completed etc (6) Start releasing capability. Many projects here & overseas hit roadblocks - more often as not thru political interference in choosing platforms that suit political & budget considerations as a priority over & above getting the best tool for the job. The measure of a projects success is however not how cheap nor pain-free the purchase is initially, but how effectively issues get sorted & how the platform delivers over it's life, of which spares availability is a key consideration. It seems LMT had the firing pins replaced before the story even became public! Looking at your suggestions for platforms - HiLux with an HMG, or US Coast Guard patrol vessels it suggest that you feel a primarily peacekeeping force is what we should be doing, as you can't do combat with either. That's all fine & dandy except clearly the NZ Govt, including the current one (as the P8 purchase shows) requires the NZDF to maintain a degree of combat capability which is important of course for integration with our defence partners which is the cornerstone of our 'collective security' policy. If we turned up at a coalition operation with Hi-Luxes & patrol vessels and it became a 'hot' operation we'd be sent packing by our partners as we would then be a liability. So rather than what the media see as Defence heads wanting the most expensive toys (which they rarely get) what occurs is they (Defence heads & Ministry of Defence) they look at what best meets the Govt policy direction and then make a determination on what the best platform is to do the job at least risk to life, budgets, public perception, and ability to get the job done. ....You get what you pay for! |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Oct 22, 2018 11:53:06 GMT 12
It looks like Buzz Lightyears design. And no you cant trust the Navy ( or Army for that matter ) to select the right kit. How come it takes years to introduce a new toy into service ( NH90 ) yet Air NZ has their new 787s earning $$$ within a week . Even the Army's lastest bang bang doesnt go bang , rather embarrassing if you pulled the trigger. I said years ago ( nobody listened ) that our Navy should be buying US Coast Guard vessels , even second hand . Long range , good crew facilities , ocean going ( think Alaskan and Aleutian waters ) have a pop gun and are IRB capable . Nobody will listen as Defence think that they always need big ticket items . Yet a Hiluk with a bunch of 50 cals in the tray seem to hit the spot in many places and the hard tipped $5000 rounds that are fired against them just go right through.So then you need a laser guided $2 million missile to do the job ,and I think thats how the Defence industry works . So never ask them how to crack an egg. Several members have responded to try and educate you on the difference between commercial and military equipment. As others have explained commercial aircraft/vehicle/ships are designed to one thing very well with high degree of reliability. However military equipment is required to undertake a wide range of different tasks often under a wide range of circumstances requiring a variety of additional systems. You suggest Hilux with a .50 cal machine gun. In addition to the previously mentioned lack of protection they just are not robust enough. In Afghanistan NZDF leased Hilux to use as patrol vehicles. Due to the nature of the roads and payloads that hd to be carried many had to be replaced in as short as 3 months as they were literally falling apart. Why carry big payloads - the typical farm Hilux is used an farm tracks carrying the farmer, his dogs and some feed or other farm equipment. A military Hilux has 4-5 soldiers, their food, water and equipment to camp out for 5-10 days. Then there is there weapons, communications, spare wheels, vehicle maintenance tools and protection systems. Have you ever fired a .50 cal? I can tell you, bolt a mount to a Hilux deck and start firing. The rivets and welds in the body and chassis will soon start popping out/cracking. The vehicle is just not designed for those types of stresses. |
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Post by mcmaster on Oct 22, 2018 12:38:25 GMT 12
This vessel purchase seems wholly sensible for NZ. Hardly Buzz Lightyear stuff as is a tried, tested and capable diving and survey platform. Methinks the Global Moderator just wants to stick it up navy and army. Bad form.
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Post by navymllad on Oct 22, 2018 14:48:15 GMT 12
These Offshore support vessels are really well built and equipped with lots of good kit suitable for the role. My only thought was how useable the forward helicopter deck is with the vessel under way. in Oil rig support the ships tend to be static a lot of the time. I hope its big enough for a Seasprite - an A109 shouldn't have a problem, but a Sprite would be useful in the event of a medical evac (always a possibility on a dive vessel...) Kia ora Bruce, my thoughts too regarding Helo Capability. I raised the issue in my Blog rednaz1958.blogspot.com/2018/08/new-defense-hardware-announcements.html |
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Post by navymllad on Oct 22, 2018 15:13:43 GMT 12
One has to query who/what is replacing who/what?? The Edda Fonn is replacing 4 Navy platforms. HMNZS Manawanui(Deep Dive) HMNZS Resolution (Survey) , HMNZS Tui (Oceanography) and MCM (LOSC)
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Post by pjw4118 on Oct 22, 2018 15:14:00 GMT 12
What a great response , thanks lads. The Buzz lightyear comment was directed at the great chin this vessel has , dont you see the likeness.
Regarding the other bait , the new rifle is much better than the Steyr , and I have fired a Bofors that was bolted into the tray of a Mazda ute ( with a lot of steel bracing ).
My point really was that our Forces spend a lot of our money and I want them equipped with as much of the best equipment as they require but not on expensive things they are told that they need .
Our Armed Forces are expected to do a great deal with sometimes inadequate resources so to my point about patrol vessels. If the Government feels we need to beef up the NZ presence around NZ Pacific and sub Arctic territories ( Cooks / Tokulaus /Auckland Is ) and be on hand for Tonga , Samoa , Vanuatu etc then we need suitable vessels which dont need ASW capabilities or even be armoured . They need to be long range and be big enough , hence my comment about the US Coast Guard large cutters. Perhaps a similar thing applies to the RNZAF transport fleet where a variety of equipment is needed to meet a variety of needs and to stretch the ANZ point a bit longer , buying many aircraft that are really too big to use on short haul is a waste , but lets not go there.
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Post by saratoga on Oct 22, 2018 15:18:54 GMT 12
Not so much replacing, but filling in for.
Its an interim purchase, that will inform the future capability required so we hopefully get what ship(s)we really need in the future.
Also given the Navy's issues with manning the current fleet, its probably wiser to reduce to one vessel, no point having capability tied up at the wharf.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 22, 2018 16:39:19 GMT 12
I have fired a Bofors that was bolted into the tray of a Mazda ute Crikey Peter, I did not realise West Auckland had gotten that bad!  |
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 22, 2018 17:32:07 GMT 12
HMNZS Tui, Resolution and Manawanui didn't have flight decks at all, so... it is a step up in any sense of the word... I served on Tui for 2 years and never needed a helo to do the job. But having the helo deck available allows other operations to happen. Including an emergency deck in fleet operations.
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Post by kiwirob on Oct 22, 2018 19:10:59 GMT 12
How come it takes years to introduce a new toy into service ( NH90 ) yet Air NZ has their new 787s earning $$$ within a week . Air NZ already operate two versions of the 777, the 787 and 777 share a common type rating. The conversion course for a 777 pilot to fly a 787 is a couple of days. |
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Post by scrooge on Oct 22, 2018 19:35:47 GMT 12
And… AirNZ are looking at replacing some current aircraft in 2022 (and have been doing the numbers for some time). They'll make a call next year some time for planned delivery in 2022. So there's a fair bit of lead planning before the first passenger can book a seat, let alone set foot onboard.
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Post by navymllad on Oct 23, 2018 21:55:38 GMT 12
HMNZS Tui, Resolution and Manawanui didn't have flight decks at all, so... it is a step up in any sense of the word... I served on Tui for 2 years and never needed a helo to do the job. But having the helo deck available allows other operations to happen. Including an emergency deck in fleet operations. Raises a query not thought of (as I am aware??) - the Flightdeck would allow for Helo landings of Divers suffering Bends related conditions, her Hyperbaric Chamber would be a huge asset whilst serving away from Hauraki Gulf. Bearing in mind Bends divers can't be allowed to go above a certain height (from memory 90m.) |
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Post by gibbo on Oct 24, 2018 18:50:50 GMT 12
HMNZS Tui, Resolution and Manawanui didn't have flight decks at all, so... it is a step up in any sense of the word... I served on Tui for 2 years and never needed a helo to do the job. But having the helo deck available allows other operations to happen. Including an emergency deck in fleet operations. Raises a query not thought of (as I am aware??) - the Flightdeck would allow for Helo landings of Divers suffering Bends related conditions, her Hyperbaric Chamber would be a huge asset whilst serving away from Hauraki Gulf. Bearing in mind Bends divers can't be allowed to go above a certain height (from memory 90m.) Yes I understand there is significant altitude limits for flying divers with bends symptoms - I recall reading years ago the WestPac rescue chopper once flew a diver back from the Coromandel back to Akl & it flew up around Cape Colville to remain a few 100 feet above water rather than a direct route over the Coromandel Ranges so as to avoid aggravating the divers symptoms. In fact I used to work with a guy who picked up a mild dose of bends at Raglan & drove home but he only twigged what was happening when he felt dizzy & achy everytime the road climbed up hills. So the limit must not only be very real but also quite low. Back to the flightdeck on the new Manawanui. it will be a very useful addition. It's all about being able to transfer personnel and/or equipment & stores on and off the vessel for which there will be a whole host of plausible scenarios for the various deployments she'll make. Anything transferred by chopper will need to be manhandled through the doorways adjacent to the pad so they'll have to be man-manageable, but that's shouldn't be a major. The pad also offers an additional emergency landing pad should a nearby chopper (size & weight considered) require it, plus it also offers a clear dedicated space for VertRep where a chopper is merely doing winching or underslung loads on or off. Divers or Hydrographers can be transferred to & from the ship - casualties (incl. divers with bends) to or from the ships hospital room; crew transfers; VIPs - you name it. The only catch is of course that without a hangar she can't embark a chopper, another vessel will have to provide that, but in many cases she'll deploy in concert with Canterbury (think Croix Du Sud etc) or other vessels with choppers embarked. The other thing too of course is she is going to primarily work in littoral environments where land based choppers (Mil or Civ) become a real option. I'm looking forward to seeing this vessel start producing outputs. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Jan 3, 2019 19:09:04 GMT 12
Man on Can. HMNZS Canterbury might be our largest vessel, but the new Dive Hydrographic Vessel Manawanui, due for delivery this year, is no lightweight. She’s as long as an Offshore Patrol Vessel, 4 metres wider, and her bridge rises 16 metres above the waterline.  |
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Post by gibbo on Jan 3, 2019 21:14:15 GMT 12
Man on Can. HMNZS Canterbury might be our largest vessel, but the new Dive Hydrographic Vessel Manawanui, due for delivery this year, is no lightweight. She’s as long as an Offshore Patrol Vessel, 4 metres wider, and her bridge rises 16 metres above the waterline. Cool graphic, where'd you find that? IIRC the new Manawanui displaces 2.5 times what an OPV does... so yes she's huge compared to Manawanui III she replaces. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Jan 3, 2019 22:59:59 GMT 12
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Post by gibbo on Jan 4, 2019 16:04:50 GMT 12
Ah yes did find the link, I hadn't looked very hard  That's a nice job you've done of superimposing Aotearoa... she'll certainly make quite a statement when tied up at Devonport. Am looking forward to Manawanui IV, even though she's a (well kept) 2nd hand vessel she's going to be a very capable vessel - from what I can see not many Navies use this type of vessel for dive support but on paper they seem so logical... altho I don't profess to be an expert on the subject. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Feb 9, 2019 13:58:24 GMT 12
MV Edda Fonn, the Navy's future Dive Hydro Vessel, departs its homeport of Haugesund, Norway, for the final time. — in Haugesund, Norway.  Kiwi conversion. Our future Dive Hydro Vessel, MV Edda Fonn, arrived in Denmark to begin her modifications towards making her a diving and hydrographic capability for our Navy. Next month, with conversions - and new paintwork - complete, she will start sea trials.   From RNZN Facebook page |
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Post by nighthawknz on Feb 20, 2019 6:39:02 GMT 12
Is there anything more satisfying than watching a ship get painted? MV Edda Fonn, the Navy's future Dive Hydrographic Vessel, surrenders her civilian colours for the tones of a warship. She is currently in Denmark, being fitted with new equipment suitable for her Navy role. www.facebook.com/NZNavy/videos/2323204374622542/ |
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Post by kiwiruna on Feb 20, 2019 7:31:43 GMT 12
Regarding embarking a Helicopter,would it be possible to fit the flight deck with some type of inflatable hangar?
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