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Post by tfly on Jun 30, 2020 2:30:55 GMT 12
Interesting article in Flight Global following an interview with chief air vice-marshal Andrew Clark Mention of medium sized surveillance aircraft “One compelling acquisition that was listed in the plan calls for an airborne surveillance capability to complement the P-8A. Clark says that this is now referred to as EMAC, short for enhanced maritime awareness capability. However effective, four P-8As will not be the entire solution for New Zealand’s maritime domain awareness requirement. Clark foresees a layered approach that includes space-based surveillance, as well as a medium-sized surveillance aircraft that lacks the range of the P-8A, but which has high utilisation rates in support of civilian agency requirements. UAVs are also seen as part of this surveillance mix.” Full report here www.flightglobal.com/rnzaf-chief-eyes-big-regions-broad-requirements/139039.article |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 30, 2020 10:42:42 GMT 12
We have them already, the King Airs with all the bells and whistles.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jun 30, 2020 11:23:21 GMT 12
Defence is also studying the use of long range UAV's such as the RAAF is looking at. These could be deployed to cover our EEZ with followup prosecution of suspect targets by the P8 or naval ships.
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Post by machina on Jun 30, 2020 19:40:47 GMT 12
Satellites get a mention; I wonder if that would involve Rocket Lab at all?
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Post by phil on Jul 2, 2020 18:58:49 GMT 12
We have them already, the King Airs with all the bells and whistles. No, EMAC is separate. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 2, 2020 19:06:24 GMT 12
That is good to know, thanks Phil.
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Post by tfly on Oct 25, 2020 1:31:13 GMT 12
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Post by tfly on Oct 25, 2020 1:58:17 GMT 12
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Post by tfly on Oct 25, 2020 2:08:24 GMT 12
A little more ‘visual’ information 😉
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Oct 26, 2020 9:42:24 GMT 12
It seems the biggest thing the ATR-72 MPA has going for it is the logistics commonality with the Air NZ fleet (how long will that last - commercial timeframes are much shorter than Defence timeframes). Can anyone tell me if it can launch a life raft? Does a genuine ASW version actually exist (there was some interest from Turkey - but it appears they are now trying to adapt existing aircraft in their fleet themselves)? A C295 could do the same MPA role as a ATR-72 (perhaps better due to it having a rear ramp to launch a life raft, but could add cargo roles as well - see the Portuguese VIMAR variant ( link) which has a roll-on/roll-off MPA suite). It also has a much more established international customer base. Another option could be the Alenia C-27J, as used by the RAAF, but as yet it doesn't come in a genuine MPA configuration (one of the USCG aircraft went into the shop to be missionized at the end of 2017 and hasn't been heard of since!) I note that the RAAF Spartans have recently added the capability to deploy an airdropped rescue package ( link) |
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Post by pepe on Oct 26, 2020 10:35:08 GMT 12
It seems the biggest thing the ATR-72 MPA has going for it is the logistics commonality with the Air NZ fleet (how long will that last - commercial timeframes are much shorter than Defence timeframes). Can anyone tell me if it can launch a life raft? Does a genuine ASW version actually exist (there was some interest from Turkey - but it appears they are now trying to adapt existing aircraft in their fleet themselves)? A C295 could do the same MPA role as a ATR-72 (perhaps better due to it having a rear ramp to launch a life raft, but could add cargo roles as well - see the Portuguese VIMAR variant ( link) which has a roll-on/roll-off MPA suite). It also has a much more established international customer base. Another option could be the Alenia C-27J, as used by the RAAF, but as yet it doesn't come in a genuine MPA configuration (one of the USCG aircraft went into the shop to be missionized at the end of 2017 and hasn't been heard of since!) I note that the RAAF Spartans have recently added the capability to deploy a life raft ( link) The second video shows them launching a liferaft through the starboard port rear door. |
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Oct 26, 2020 10:54:53 GMT 12
Cheers, missed that.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 27, 2020 8:26:03 GMT 12
Might I suggest at this point refering back to the most recent DCP for the best indication of what Govt proposes for EMAC...
"The Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability project will support the Government’s civil maritime security strategy, providing air surveillance capabilities that enhance all-of-Government maritime domain awareness in New Zealand and the Southern Ocean. The capabilities delivered through this investment will be dedicated to civil surveillance requirements, with Defence support for their delivery and operation. This will free up the new P-8A maritime patrol aircraft fleet to fly more missions in the South Pacific and further afield. Investment in a range of capabilities will be considered, including satellite surveillance, unmanned aerial vehicles and traditional fixed-wing surveillance".
AVM Clark might suggest a medium sized a/c but that doesn't mention what systems might be onboard... I think that alludes more to a/c range that anything else. I'm very much of the opinion the EMAC is extremely unlikely to have any actual combat capability, and will almost certainly be unarmed. The intention looks to be taking some of the more 'civilian' tasks (Fisheries patrol; Customs patrol; HADR; SAR etc) from the P8 so that the latter can be focused more on pure military taskings. I'd suggest the systems onboard won't be much beyond what the 2 KA-350 fitted with sensors currently offer, but that is sufficient for the required task, and as these modular systems can be fitted relatively cheaply these days, this might leave enough $$$ in the kitty for enough airframes to allow the project to make a positive impact on P8 taskings.
I'm not at all concerned about EMAC being a non-combat a/c if that does eventuate, the move to a 2-tier MPA type is a smart move given budgets won't stretch to 5/6 x P8A.
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Oct 28, 2020 10:02:39 GMT 12
"The Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability project will support the Government’s civil maritime security strategy, providing air surveillance capabilities that enhance all-of-Government maritime domain awareness in New Zealand and the Southern Ocean. The capabilities delivered through this investment will be dedicated to civil surveillance requirements, with Defence support for their delivery and operation. This will free up the new P-8A maritime patrol aircraft fleet to fly more missions in the South Pacific and further afield. Investment in a range of capabilities will be considered, including satellite surveillance, unmanned aerial vehicles and traditional fixed-wing surveillance". Noted, Gibbo. But the quoted section above is the part that doesn't make much sense to me. If these aircraft are only going to do civilian tasks, why have the military run them? Why not adopt the Australian model? Australian Coastwatch have 10 Bombardier Dash-8s (a mix of -200s and -300s) and Australian Maritime Safety Authority have 4 Challenger 604s. All run by civilian contractors. On the other hand, if the military are to run them, then in my view the aircraft should have some basic military utility. I think a ATR72 doesn't offer enough versatility for a small military like NZ (it can't really carry cargo, only passengers, in a non-surveillance role, and the King Airs probably do that well enough already). It seems that we are trying to resurrect the same system we had going with the RNZAF Fokker Friendships, but forgetting we also had the Andovers at that time. One of the things I feel an EMAC aircraft should do is back up both the P-8s and the C-130Js. If either of those types gets grounded for some (technical) reason, there isn't something that can really cover for them (albeit in a reduced capability/capacity). Just look at the problems we've got each time the NH90 gets grounded. Whatever is picked for EMAC, if anything actually is, it should do the same kind of roles as the USCG HC-144. Hence I would be favouring an aircraft like the C295 (something with a rear ramp anyway). I think that the marginal cost over the ATR72 would be paid back in greater flexibility. As a bonus with the C295 (in the Portuguese variant at least), it uses equipment we are already familiar with. The Elta 2022 radar is currently on the P-3K2 Orion, and the AN/APN-241 tactical transport radar (useful for approaches in bad weather - we live in the land of the long white cloud) is used on the C-130H/J and the RAAF C-27J. Maybe we could make some logistics/training savings there. The ATR72 MPA seems to come with a Seaspray radar (which would have to be supported at additional cost). |
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Post by gibbo on Oct 28, 2020 22:26:05 GMT 12
"The Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability project will support the Government’s civil maritime security strategy, providing air surveillance capabilities that enhance all-of-Government maritime domain awareness in New Zealand and the Southern Ocean. The capabilities delivered through this investment will be dedicated to civil surveillance requirements, with Defence support for their delivery and operation. This will free up the new P-8A maritime patrol aircraft fleet to fly more missions in the South Pacific and further afield. Investment in a range of capabilities will be considered, including satellite surveillance, unmanned aerial vehicles and traditional fixed-wing surveillance". Noted, Gibbo. But the quoted section above is the part that doesn't make much sense to me. If these aircraft are only going to do civilian tasks, why have the military run them? Why not adopt the Australian model? Australian Coastwatch have 10 Bombardier Dash-8s (a mix of -200s and -300s) and Australian Maritime Safety Authority have 4 Challenger 604s. All run by civilian contractors. On the other hand, if the military are to run them, then in my view the aircraft should have some basic military utility. I think a ATR72 doesn't offer enough versatility for a small military like NZ (it can't really carry cargo, only passengers, in a non-surveillance role, and the King Airs probably do that well enough already). It seems that we are trying to resurrect the same system we had going with the RNZAF Fokker Friendships, but forgetting we also had the Andovers at that time. One of the things I feel an EMAC aircraft should do is back up both the P-8s and the C-130Js. If either of those types gets grounded for some (technical) reason, there isn't something that can really cover for them (albeit in a reduced capability/capacity). Just look at the problems we've got each time the NH90 gets grounded. Whatever is picked for EMAC, if anything actually is, it should do the same kind of roles as the USCG HC-144. Hence I would be favouring an aircraft like the C295 (something with a rear ramp anyway). I think that the marginal cost over the ATR72 would be paid back in greater flexibility. As a bonus with the C295 (in the Portuguese variant at least), it uses equipment we are already familiar with. The Elta 2022 radar is currently on the P-3K2 Orion, and the AN/APN-241 tactical transport radar (useful for approaches in bad weather - we live in the land of the long white cloud) is used on the C-130H/J and the RAAF C-27J. Maybe we could make some logistics/training savings there. The ATR72 MPA seems to come with a Seaspray radar (which would have to be supported at additional cost). Hey yeah totally agree with the concept of a military transport type with EMAC... C295/C27J types would be a particular favourite too, for all the same reasons, and there's nothing to discount it as an option at this stage. I was just pre-empting the inevitable slide of this thread (based on other discussions I've seen about EMAC) into ASW & ASuW options! It'll be pretty much similar to the KA350 in terms of systems fitout I dare say... happy to be proved wrong but the DCP does make a fairly clear statement of the Govt's intent. Whilst civvy tasks will be their bread and butter, keeping them in the military fold as 2 distinct advantages (1) NZ doesn't have a aviation capable off-shore border force operator other than RNZAF (+ RNZN SH-2G) who have decades of such experience so it makes sense to avoid the cost of standing up another parallel organisation to do so, especially when it would be likely quite a small operator (2) it still provides the Govt the ability to direct the capability to be deployed at it's own request at short notice... some could be in support of military taskings where civilian crews might not be a viable option. As you say though, that's if anything actually does eventuate. |
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Post by gibbo on Nov 12, 2020 22:00:22 GMT 12
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Post by kiwirico on Nov 22, 2020 9:43:03 GMT 12
Well, what does this mean? Possible extra flying assets next to the four P-8A? |
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Post by gibbo on Nov 23, 2020 12:08:45 GMT 12
Well, what does this mean? Possible extra flying assets next to the four P-8A? Pretty much have to take it at face-value... it states, as per last DCP, that EMAC is a capability (take it as read that it will be unarmed) being looked at to compliment the P-8A by taking up some of the civvy tasks expected of the latter... SAR, general EEZ patrol taskings etc. The project is a way off deciding what the capability will consist of but the potential options are listed... satellite; RPA; fixed-wing piloted aircraft are all contenders and the final mix could be any combination of 1, 2 or all 3 of these.... early days. |
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Post by pepe on Nov 23, 2020 20:32:02 GMT 12
As discussed in some earlier posts the project may not even end up in RNZAF hands.
"Support, operating and ownership models of the capability elements are not finalised at the moment, with the project team open to a range of acquisition options including Government Owned/Contractor Operated, Surveillance As a Service or Government Owned/Government Operated."
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Post by kiwirico on Nov 24, 2020 6:52:48 GMT 12
Well, what does this mean? Possible extra flying assets next to the four P-8A? Pretty much have to take it at face-value... it states, as per last DCP, that EMAC is a capability (take it as read that it will be unarmed) being looked at to compliment the P-8A by taking up some of the civvy tasks expected of the latter... SAR, general EEZ patrol taskings etc. The project is a way off deciding what the capability will consist of but the potential options are listed... satellite; RPA; fixed-wing piloted aircraft are all contenders and the final mix could be any combination of 1, 2 or all 3 of these.... early days. Thanks Gibbo, would be interesting to see what it will bring. Sure I like the P-72/ATR-72 idea. Let's cross fingers and hope it will bring something good. |
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